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Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.
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Old 22 May 2005, 15:25   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.

So far I get the impression of stuff that is regularily frowned upon by most players:

Shas'o over Shas'el
Bodyguards
Guns or Shield Drones on your HQ
Shield Generators
Pulse Carbines in General
So far I get the impression of stuff that is regularily frowned upon by most players:

-Shas'o over Shas'el
-Bodyguards
-Guns or Shield Drones on your HQ
-Shield Generators
-Pulse Carbines in General

Update:
-Krootox
-Rail Rifles
-Pathfinders in general
-Human Auxillary
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Old 22 May 2005, 15:35   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robogem
So far I get the impression of stuff that is regularily frowned upon by most players:

Shas'o over Shas'el
Bodyguards
Guns or Shield Drones on your HQ
Shield Generators
Pulse Carbines in General
Well, not the pulse carbines. Remember. They're manditory for at least a FEW of your Pathfinders ^_^.
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Old 22 May 2005, 15:55   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.

I assume you mean frowned upon by Tau players as in what they take in their lists?

If that is the case, don't assume it's all Tau players just because it's popular here to claim that the Shas'O is a bad idea. You may read that here, but you'll find more people who actually still take their Shas'O regardless and just don't say it. As for bodyguards, its the same thing. Some people still take them. Gundrones and Shielddrones on your HQ is merely popular to say against because it breaks independent character status, which is highly prized around here. That and people are upset buy majorities rules with drones so they want to protect their precious commanders. Shield Generators are frowned at mostly because of price, but you'll find a lot of people still take them both on their Crisis and XV-88 suits pretty commonly, though a lot of people will say not to. Pulse Carbines are frowned on around here because people seem to think that the pinning potential against marines just isn't good enough or other armies--even though many players do indeed still take pulse carbines because they are useful against more than just marines.

So let's look at it one more time:
  • Shas'O over Shas'El:

    Many people will say to take the Shas'el for efficiency per price of the Shas'el to save points and to keep a powerful firing platform that takes a lot of advantage from the independent character rules of 4th edition. You will find many people still take the Shas'o, even after recommending to take the Shas'el because it is easier to give advise than to follow it, and some people simply love their BS5 suits with 3 weapons.

    Bodyguards:

    This is frowned upon for two reasons: they're more expensive than standard XV8's and they remove indpendent character status from your Commander. That means, they're too expensive for their ability and they take away that precious advantage of the Commander as an Independent Character. However, they're already preset to take hardwired systems and some people like to keep their suits as an HQ to make more room for their massive amount of Stealthsuits. This is probably one of the lesser taken XV8's simply because they are indeed too expensive, but some armies such as Farsight Enclave still make use of them. So some people still take these suits even though it's frowned upon apparently.

    Gun Drones & Shield Drones on the HQ:

    Again there are two reasons: majorities and independent character status. Gundrones and Shieldrones have their uses and some people still use them. There are still people who are taking drones and making large squads that are lead by their commander. There are also tank busting monat Commanders with shield drones and shield generators out there still being used. It's merely frowned upon here because everyone wants their Commander to be independent so that he can take the most advantage of the 4th edition rules and output the most accurate damage of your suits possible.

    Shield Generators:

    A lot of players still use these. It is frowned upon because it's very expensive and takes up a hardpoint. However, many people take a twin-linked weapon and a shield generator all the time. They're quite useful when facing opponents regularly who always insta-kill and beat your suits armor too soon. You will more often find shield generators on Broadsides, because of the kind of return fire they take. These are simply frowned upon due to price making the suit "less efficient" or in other words, it's only about the numbers. Many people still take them and swear by them as they've saved a suit in a critical moment before. This is a matter of number crunching versus experience. Some people don't bother with them and merely use free cover saves, others use them because they have no choice and some don't bother with either. It just comes down to you.

    Pulse Carbines in General:

    This topic always comes up. The pulse carbine is -the best- basic trooper weapon in the game. Look at it. It's an incredible weapon. Every other army would beg to have these kinds of strong assault pinning weapons with great range for it's use. Why are they frowned upon? Because people want that single extra shot from their pulse rifle. The thing is, it seems popular for people to assume pulse carbines are taken in large amounts when all you need is about 2 of them. Pulse Carbines are extremely useful and taking 2 of them grants you the ability to hit and possibly wound and cause a pinning test on a unit for the loss of 2 shots. The real reason people frown upon the pulse carbine is because of number crunching--less shots and not a super chance of pinning against marines. It really boils down to that. If it doesn't pin marines easily, then apparently it's not good enough. Ask people who use pulse carbines and you'll hear different experiences of how those Ld8, 9 and 10 do actually fail their tests from time to time.

You'll find a lot of information for and against things, with mathematical probabilities and experience being reasons or proof. However, don't let that be the determining factor for you. Play your game the way you want to and see how things work for you. Unless you're really trying to crunch numbers and get the absolute most out of your army, just enjoy the game and take the things that interest you. Afterall, people who still crunch numbers and all still lose games, while people who don't still win games. It comes down to how you play your force, tactics, strategy, and plain out luck (and the quality of your opponent of course).

Now if you're talking about frowning from the other side of the table, opponent's of Tau generally frown upon our independent characters taking a lot of advantage from 4th edition rules and a lot of people complain about taking 3 hammerheads in any game less than 1850 points. Of course, that's just in general and may not apply to everyone.
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Old 22 May 2005, 18:57   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robogem
So far I get the impression of stuff that is regularily frowned upon by most players:

Shas'o over Shas'el
Bodyguards
Guns or Shield Drones on your HQ
Shield Generators
Pulse Carbines in General
A lot of people regard the shas'o as not worth his points- that a shas'el is more point efficient. I'm not sure. Personally I take a shas'el over a shas'o for one sole reason: fluff. A cadre is led by a shas'el. A shas'o is a 5 star general, or a tau version of the Imperial Warmaster. he's the dude who is in charge of all the cadres in a command. And he will only ever turn* up on the field in very rare circumstances, like when the battle is crucial, and morale demands his inspiring presence. A lot of tau players take a shas'o for bs5, but to me, that amount of shas'os is unfluffy. theres one shas'o for maybe every 20+ shas'el. If I'm playing a 5000 point game, or some other obscenely huge game, I'll take a shas'o for fluff. he just has to be there if the battle is that big. But shas'els for everything else!

I don't like shas'vre bodyguards as they remove the IC status of my commander, and they are 10 points more expensive and have nothing over a standard crisis suit stats wise, bar a pointless WS and I increase. Sure, you can take hard wired kit, but that just makes them even more expensive, and suits cost a hell of a lot as it is!

Suit drones (shield and gun) were a staple under 3rd ed, when the tau codex drone rules were in effect, ie you could allocate any nasty hits onto your drones. Not only has this been removed under 4th ed, but crisis suit/ drone units follow majority toughness and majority save rules. So, when shooting at a crisis suit with 2 drones, you count the unit toughness as 3, and the unit save is 4+. none of which are good. And as well, they remove shas'el/o IC status.

I like shield generators. they are very useful on broadsides. less so on crisis suits, but they have a role.

I disagree on mal'veaux's beliefs on the carbine. to me its the worst gun in the game. It had its use in 3rd ed, when moving FWs could only pop off 1 shot with wither carbine, or rifle, so you lost nothing, but gained an ability to pop off a few more shots up to 18". 4th ed sees carbines outclassed totally at both long range, and short range. Its only useful for moving and popping off a few shots beyond your 12" rifle range. Or retreating from a closing assault unit. But while you gain the ability to shoot while you retreat, you've lost your ability to pepper said assault unit* from 30" away while they were approaching. The pinning ability is absolutely worthless. Most armies are virtually immune to pinning. Orks have mob rule, 'nids have the fearless in synapse range rule, Space Marines are tough to kill in the first place, and then can roll off ld10. CHaos is even worse. those troops that aren't already fearless (75% of the list) can get MoCU, which allows a ld9 re-roll. Guardsmen are about all you'll pin, and you'd be better off pounding the squad into the dirt in the first place with more pulse shots from a rifle to begin with!
3 units can get carbines. Fire Warriors, whose rifle is a better all round weapon. and the 50% rounding down carbine rule is handicapping.
Pathfinders, who in actuality have markerlights with attached carbines.
GUn drones whose re-rollable shots makes them useable. but they are an expensive novelty unit.
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Old 22 May 2005, 23:14   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robogem
So far I get the impression of stuff that is regularily frowned upon by most players:

Shas'o over Shas'el
Bodyguards
Guns or Shield Drones on your HQ
Shield Generators
Pulse Carbines in General
I'd have to disagree with most of those statements.

Shas'o have their uses - I *like* BS5. And if a Space Marine Grand Master can be runnning around the field - so can my Shas'o Also - he is QUITE respectable in close combat- unlike the rest of the army. Not as good as dedicated assault unit - but you should see the look on a players face when a WS 4, St5 Tau gets 5 attacks on the charge. ;D

Bodyguards can be useful if you like Shield Generators and HW Multitrackers. Personally - this unit generally does more for me than most - it is especially useful in Cityfight - where reduced LOS makes up for losing the IC status. I use it when I use that Shas'O and I have a lot of points to spend.

Shield Generators - I'm torn - i KNOW cover can be better and free - but there are times when you WON'T have good cover. Also - Jumping into difficult terrain to get that cover can be hazardous to your suits' health. I don't bother in smaller scale games - but once the poitns go over 2K - Shield Generators go in...

Shield drones - USED to use them all the time - now they are a deathtrap.

Pulse Carbines - removed them from my Fire Warriors - Rapid fire is better for my purposes. I got SO few actual pins from them that frankly - it was a non event. I don't mind them on my "expendable" gun drones though...

Dave Gaidasz
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Old 23 May 2005, 02:40   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.

on the shas O I personaly use him becose I realy love what im geting from him almost always hits and w/ his plasma eh will almost alwals kill 2 mereens becose it is 2+ to hit 2+ to wound with no save! ;D

well I gues gards could be good but I dint want to send more $ on em so I got other stuff for less $ wich is a limited recorces

on the drones in HQ once again I dont know, never tried it, all I know is then you get majority saves but I dono maby

never tried but I bet this could be good for helios or suits that are expecting alot of good AP wepons, cose it would save u from half of th missile lanchers out there so I could see that being good on HQ or a expensive crisis squad. but not realy sure

well I use caribines mostly cose when I was glueing they looked cool and now there glued. but actualy Ive found that ocationaly ia hi leadership squad will fale and then a very expense squad will be out for one turn wich can realy take some presure of ur guys, buyt thats just me





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Old 23 May 2005, 12:11   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.

Quote:
So far I get the impression of stuff that is regularily frowned upon by most players:

Shas'o over Shas'el
Bodyguards
Guns or Shield Drones on your HQ
Shield Generators
Pulse Carbines in General
It's more down to people following the crowd and saying what is popular on the forums, as MalVeuX correctly stated, people will say one thing to the contrary and still play their game that way..

Command Suits

Personally I don't like the Shas'O, because I think "I could just take 2 El's for cheaper". However, the BS is amazing on an 'O and this plays to the strenghts of our weapons very well. 'Multi role O's' have a lot of potential, as they can always have the right weapon (Plasma/Missile Pod/Fusion) and have a great chance to hit. So why wouldn't you take one of these bad boys? To me, personal preference. 2 cheaper El's means points for elsewhere and El's still get the job done well. 2 Multi O's would be a real pain but too expensive IMO. Try experimenting.

BodyGuards

Crisis suits are too expensive for what they are already IMO, why would I pay more for better CC stats, when I don't want these in CC? It's nice that they can take HW stuff but the cons definetely outweigh the Pro's.. Keep your IC independant and don't take Bodyguards unless it's for fluff reasons. e.g. I want to make a Hostile Environment Tau Expeditionary force one day, Crisis heavy Other than a fluff reason, I'd stay away from Bodyguards as they are too expensive. Get Kroot :P

Drones on IC

Never tried it so I can't comment. I can't imagine it'd be beneficial though, as long as something else is nearer your IC suits won't be being shot anyway, and even when they are they have a good save and toughness. They only need to fear Anti Tank weaponry (high str = instakill) but who doesn't ? Up to you, do you want IK protection at the loss of your IC status?

Shield Generators

Invlnerable Save at 'x' points... I wouldnt even bother as it makes your suits cost more, which means less points for the rest of the army and a kick in the teeth when you lose it But thats my preference and I've never tried these.

Pulse Carbines

I don't like Pathfnders, so thats out of the Q. If I did - I'd want them marking and firing Seekers, not using their assault weapon. But of course thats theoretical..

I'd also rather keep my FCW squads shooty and keep the Rifles, but if you use FoF loads it would make sense to substitute a few Rifles for Carbines. And as FoF is popular here, I have no idea why people don't like them in general (except for me ). Take a Gundrone Squad of 8 ! Cheap, mobile, expendable and they come with Twinlinked Carbines (making them more reliable..sort of). So you can zip them up a flank and start pinning, even if they are Marines, if they direct a turn of shooting from that Las/Plas squad or whatever, it let your Tanks of the hook for a turn

ALL down to personal preference, play how you want, not how the boards general consensus wants you to play. Hope this helped.

Good Luck
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Old 23 May 2005, 13:31   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.

Yeah... my army is entirely against forum opinion: I have a Shas'o with a shield generator, gun drones and a bodyguard (ill get two eventually). Heh. Maybe that's why I always lose with meh Tau, but I doubt it.
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Old 23 May 2005, 16:54   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Espi0N
Drones on IC

Never tried it so I can't comment. I can't imagine it'd be beneficial though, as long as something else is nearer your IC suits won't be being shot anyway, and even when they are they have a good save and toughness. They only need to fear Anti Tank weaponry (high str = instakill) but who doesn't ? Up to you, do you want IK protection at the loss of your IC status?
You can get them to work with ethereals. The other day when I was deploying my ethereal with my broadsides (if I play both now they always go together), I figured something out.

You can deploy your broadsides 5 inches or so back in area terrain and have your ethereal with his shield drones trail to the point where the ethereal ends up attached to the squad and in coherency, but behind the cover so he cannot be the legal target of enemy fire if it does hit your squad.

I'm not totally sure this works out, but it seems legal. He is still attached to the squad making them fearless and giving them leadership 10, but he cannot actually be targetted by anything opposite the terrain.



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Old 23 May 2005, 17:20   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stuff that is commonly frowned upon for Tau.

If you can get terrain that blocks line of sight, you can indeed chain-gang your drones and Ethereal to almost any squad to grant them the benefits, while keeping him an impossible target due to line of sight restrictions.
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