Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?
Closed Thread
Old 21 May 2005, 05:37   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,937
Default Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?

Right now I'm just trying to find out ratios, and what would be best to use overall between a crisis fire knife or a TL with PR.
__________________
Tau wins 38 tie 2 lost 8

Death Guard win 13 tie 0 lost 2

dark eldar wins 5 tie 0 lost 1
frankthetank is offline  
Old 21 May 2005, 07:33   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Fifth circle of hell
Posts: 3,150
Default Re: Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankthetank
Right now I'm just trying to find out ratios, and what would be best to use overall between a crisis fire knife or a TL with PR.
One gives you more shots and versatility, the other gives you more accuracy, but more of a niche role.
Fireknife lets you take on marines, and light armour. but its bs3. twin linking the plasmas improves your accuracy (bs3.5) a bit but you lose out on no tank busting, unless yours is a shas'vre with HW multi tracker. Take a pathfinder squad though, and youre dealing with bs5 plasma rifles, OR bs5 missile pods. I'd stick with fireknife.
__________________
greatest band in the universe: www.machinaesupremacy.com

"What warriors of men can stand beside the Space Wolves! The Sons of Fenris they are, hardened in the forge of their harsh world, eager for battle and honour. They are the grey warriors, ashen like the wolf, whose greatest joy is to hear the clamour of steel amidst the din of war. None can step before them, they are the first, proud in their strength and jealous of their renown. Through the storms of the warp they come, upon the very tides of terror, but of such dangers they are uncaring. They are the Space Wolves, the Undefeated, the bane of the Emperor's foes."
Deadnight is offline  
Old 21 May 2005, 14:34   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alachua, Florida
Posts: 8,647
Send a message via MSN to MalVeauX
Default Re: Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?

Frank:

Really, you cannot compare the two sits very much. You could compare the plasma together of course. Or you could compare how well they work "overall" against all enemies. Fire Knife is a staple build because it gives you the two weapons that nothing else in the army list has (aside from the short ranged fusion blaster). Everything else is S5 so it's nice to have that good old plasma and it's extremely nice to have missile pods. However, both suits would play very different rolls.

For example, a Fire Knife fighting marines - He will have more things to do. The first few rounds, he may be peppering transports waiting for the inevitable deep strike or assault squad to come near, in which case they are closer and can unleash rapidfire plasma upon them along with their missile pods. At long range, the missile pods are all you'll really see working. However, up close, you're going to see quite a show of 6 missile pods and 6 plasma rifle shots for 12 total shots. Twin-linked or not, it's a good deal. The only real problem is that many people simply don't like to rely on their BS3 which can frustrate you sometimes. Fire Knives are versatile but they're not the most efficient suit for what they do. However, the fire knife is a pretty good selection for an "all comer" build. The Knife will be useful against all armies you come across, but not the best.

Now a twin-linked plasma squad of Crisis, they're very specialized and much shorter ranged. They're a bit cheaper too. Twin-linked plasma suits will be hitting about 75% of the time instead of 50% of the time, so you're eliminating some of the luck and taking a more reliable stance on your shots. The problem is, it's only really useful against infantry class targets. You could hit transports with it, but that's a very big waste of plasma and it's not that great at doing it (plasma has a hard time opening up a rhino for example). The plasma is obviously meant for something with a good armor save. The plasma is also good against deep strike units or assault teams that come up close fast, as you'll have 6 twin-linked shots up close, which will burn through a lot of things very quickly. But at the mid range, you're only looking at 3 shots at 24 inches. It's a very specialized brand of suit.

But is the twin-linked suit better? Not really. The only difference is that it's plasma is a little more reliable, but we don't have enough shots to see a dramatic difference.

Shooting at a Marine (I'm guessing marine simply because it's a common target around here):

At the 36 inch range, the fire knife is the only suit that will be doing anything of the two with 6 shots with missile pods. (6 MP shots, 3 hits, ~3 wounds, 1 failed save)
At the 24 inch range, the fire knife has 6 missile pods and 3 plasma shots that hit 50% of the time. (6 MP shots; 3 PR shots, 4~5 hits, 4 wounds, 2~3 failed saves)
At the 24 inch range, the TLPR suit has 3 plasma shots that hit 75% of the time. (3 TLPR shots, 2~3 hits, 2~3 wounds, 2~3 failed saves)
At the 12 inch range, the fire knife has 6 missile pods and 6 plasma shots that hit 50% of the time. (6 MP shots, 6 PR shots, 6 hits, 4 failed saves)
At the 12 inch range, the TLPR suit has 6 plasma shots that hit 75% of the time. (6 TLPR shots, 4 hits, 3~4 failed saves)

Now just a disclaimer, the odds I have listed there are not entirely accurate, but they're based on assumption and averages, which do not accurately describe a game that is based on 6 sided die. However, you can think of it as an example. You'll notice, at long range, the fire knife is all alone. At medium range, they're about the same at what they will kill in terms of marines at 24 inches. And up close, we see the same thing.

So why would they roughly perform very similar? Because we only have a few shots. If you were to configure 9 battle suits and test them overall, you'd see a greater difference, but with only 3 suits, you won't see a difference, of maybe 1 kill sometimes, which really isn't anything to make you think you must have that extra wound, compared to say, a 3 or 4 wound difference.

The other thing to note, is that "on rounded average" we have them very closely related, however, you will probably find that the twinlinked suits kill more often because luck does strike and you just have rotten rolls and that twinlink roll saves your rotten luck many times. So it's a trade, more chance to keep hitting along will less chance of hitting more targets at longer range.

So to answer you - neither is the best. However, in terms of what you want the suit to do, the TLPR suits will perform better up close, however, up close is a dangerous place for a suit. You could also deep strike for a surprise. The fire knife is going to be more useful through out the game, but you may fine them saving time and time again against your missile pod shots and not like that.

What I would recommend: Take the versatile suit if you have a low suit count (ie: 3 or 4 suits, take them versatile). However, if you run a lot of suits, twin-link away as you'll see the difference and you'll be ok to have a few twinlinked of X weapon and another few of twinlinked Y weapons so that you still have what you need, but the better accuracy when doing it.

Anyhow it's something to think about until one of our other people come through and give you the hard numbers with the decimal points Also, are you only thinking of fire knife and twin-linked plasma? Have you considered twin-linked missile pods? Missile pods with Burst Cannons? Other configurations perform the same and sometimes better against many armies after all. Just something else to think about.
__________________
[table][tr][td][/td][td][table][tr][td] [/td][td]Apocalypse is the only way to forty-kay.[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
MalVeauX is offline  
Old 21 May 2005, 15:16   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 562
Default Re: Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?

Since my first pay check looms ever nearer (and the subsequent beginnings of my new army) I have though about this.

Fireknife is good but sometimes it's just too annoying for me to have BS3. 2 Command Suits seems a good idea to me at the moment, tailored for specific needs they can be relied on, but arent going to do much on their own. So, I think it would probably be a good Idea to upgrade to a Team Leader and Twin Link a weapon for the purpose of the team.

It all depends on your army though. Frank have you got an army list for us to have a look at yet? If you do, maybe some people can help out with what you could add. For instance, we might say "Get TL Plasma" only to see your particular army really doesn't need it.

Ka-peesh?
__________________
Espi0N is offline  
Old 21 May 2005, 15:34   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,937
Default Re: Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Espi0N
Since my first pay check looms ever nearer (and the subsequent beginnings of my new army) I have though about this.

Fireknife is good but sometimes it's just too annoying for me to have BS3. 2 Command Suits seems a good idea to me at the moment, tailored for specific needs they can be relied on, but arent going to do much on their own. So, I think it would probably be a good Idea to upgrade to a Team Leader and Twin Link a weapon for the purpose of the team.

It all depends on your army though. Frank have you got an army list for us to have a look at yet? If you do, maybe some people can help out with what you could add. For instance, we might say "Get TL Plasma" only to see your particular army really doesn't need it.

Ka-peesh?
okay here my list

HQ shas'o FB PR MP hwMT 127pts

elites 6 stealths 180pts
crisis monat TLMP flamer 57pts
crisis monat TLMP flamer 57pts
crisis not sure yet ?
troops 12 FW sha'ui devil fish DLTA MT 230pts
12 FW sha'ui devil fish DL TA MT 230pts
20 kroot 140pts will take from kroot point to make my crisis suit
8 path finders shas'iu devil fish DL TA MT 230pts
4 seekers 40pts

heavy HH RG SMS TL MT DL 180pts
HH RG SMS TL MT DL 180pts
HH ION SMS TL MT DL 160pts

ok there it is
__________________
Tau wins 38 tie 2 lost 8

Death Guard win 13 tie 0 lost 2

dark eldar wins 5 tie 0 lost 1
frankthetank is offline  
Old 21 May 2005, 15:43   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alachua, Florida
Posts: 8,647
Send a message via MSN to MalVeauX
Default Re: Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?

Frank:

With a list like that, a single twin-linked plasma rifle suit isn't very useful. Actually, just having another missile pod suit like your other 2 could be nice, and merge them all together into a single squad, then you have an elite slot open for more stealthsuits or something.

In your list, an enemy with a good number of transports, backed by heavier tanks would over-stretch your armor busting ability at range. The missile pods make that problem go away. I'd say whatever you choose, that for your list, the missile pod on your next suit would be the best overall choice, even if you mix it with another weapon.
__________________
[table][tr][td][/td][td][table][tr][td] [/td][td]Apocalypse is the only way to forty-kay.[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
MalVeauX is offline  
Old 21 May 2005, 15:47   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,937
Default Re: Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
Frank:

With a list like that, a single twin-linked plasma rifle suit isn't very useful. Actually, just having another missile pod suit like your other 2 could be nice, and merge them all together into a single squad, then you have an elite slot open for more stealthsuits or something.

In your list, an enemy with a good number of transports, backed by heavier tanks would over-stretch your armor busting ability at range. The missile pods make that problem go away. I'd say whatever you choose, that for your list, the missile pod on your next suit would be the best overall choice, even if you mix it with another weapon.
i dont have any more points to make more elits but if i merge them i scared about the below 50% they could fall back and i could lose the whole sqaud from one dead suit
__________________
Tau wins 38 tie 2 lost 8

Death Guard win 13 tie 0 lost 2

dark eldar wins 5 tie 0 lost 1
frankthetank is offline  
Old 21 May 2005, 16:57   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,260
Default Re: Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankthetank
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
Frank:

With a list like that, a single twin-linked plasma rifle suit isn't very useful. Actually, just having another missile pod suit like your other 2 could be nice, and merge them all together into a single squad, then you have an elite slot open for more stealthsuits or something.

In your list, an enemy with a good number of transports, backed by heavier tanks would over-stretch your armor busting ability at range. The missile pods make that problem go away. I'd say whatever you choose, that for your list, the missile pod on your next suit would be the best overall choice, even if you mix it with another weapon.
i dont have any more points to make more elits but if i merge them i scared about the below 50% they could fall back and i could lose the whole sqaud from one dead suit
Frank : below 50% of two suits cannot be acomplished.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Edwin
Also note I have 6 lord level HQ's leading 10 scouts.
Join the arena, and succumb to the eternal lust!
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=9054.0
ShadowDeth is offline  
Old 21 May 2005, 17:47   #9 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 18,087
Default Re: Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?

It really does pay off to assemble your crisis suits in a way that will let you swap out weapons configurations, either with magnets or with pinning. The simple fact is that both configurations work better against certain types of armies, and it is your interests to be as flexible as possible.
khanaris is offline  
Old 22 May 2005, 03:49   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,937
Default Re: Is the fire knife better than the TL PR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
It really does pay off to assemble your crisis suits in a way that will let you swap out weapons configurations, either with magnets or with pinning. The simple fact is that both configurations work better against certain types of armies, and it is your interests to be as flexible as possible.
pinning??
__________________
Tau wins 38 tie 2 lost 8

Death Guard win 13 tie 0 lost 2

dark eldar wins 5 tie 0 lost 1
frankthetank is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Fire Knife cadre (1000 pionts) danton tyr Tau Army Lists 7 05 Nov 2008 15:22
The bonding knife......WHY IS IT A KNIFE?! cruton Tau 51 10 Mar 2007 03:36
the traitor's knife smurf Fluff/Stories 1 26 Oct 2006 15:21
Fire Knife II? Knight Actual Tau 22 21 Apr 2006 05:43
Anyone know what a fire knife is? Imation 2.0 Tau 1 02 Mar 2005 22:31