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5th Edition Battles against Marines
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Old 12 Nov 2008, 06:09   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default 5th Edition Battles against Marines

I used to routinely beat my father-in-laws Dark Angels, but under 5th edition rules, I'm barely getting draws and often losing. Many advantages have been lost, and I can't seem to find any workable tactics.

My army has vastly changed. For 1500 points, I'm running 6 maxed troops (2 Riflewarriors, 2 Carbinewarriors, 2 Kroot), 2 Broadside Monats, 1 Railhead, 2 Commander FB/MPs, 1 Crisis FB/MP/TA.

Generally, the Carbinewarriors are mobile shooters, advancing with run until able to hit something. The Riflewarriors are snipers, and the squad leader has a markerlight. The Kroot try to lurk in forests, waiting for marines to get into assault range, and advance behind the Carbinewarriors when unable to use a forest. All the other units are anti-vehicle. The real stars are the Kroot, who drop like flies but often manage to retain enough numbers to kill off units.

The problem appears to be that vehicle cover saves make my anti-vehicle far less useful. It's very rare that I can damage any vehicle now. I've fired 2 railguns and three missile pods at a land speeder and shaken it. And we're playing with limited amounts of cover against an opponent with a Whirlwind, so my troops are spread out and exposed, lest a lucky Whirlwind shot kill the entire unit. My last game, I lost 33 of 88 infantry models in the first turn, with two entire warrior units retreating off the board. And I can't concentrate firepower to destroy units spread from one side of the board to the other.

I dropped:
the Warfish (expensive, troops can run anyways, FoF NFG)
the Piranhas (FB/MP Crisis are cheaper and get more and longer range shots, and almost as mobile)
the Stealthsuits (Love them, but not troop choices. Really hoping for a stealthsuit commander provide stealthsuits as a troop choice)
the Ninja'O (VRT rules make Hit and Run unlikely to work)
the Fireknives (May return yet, but cover saves for marines make plasma less attractive)

I can't see a reason to add:
Vespid (squishy, expensive, AP:3 advantages almost negated, require major markerlight support)
Pathfinders (squishy, Devilfish makes them too expensive)
Sniper Teams (too much cover now)
Skyray (I fired all my missiles... now what?)
Special Characters (too expensive, too stupid, and/or too restrictive)

Cover saves can be removed with markerlights, but I don't consider Pathfinders an option. Too expensive and squishy. Markerdrones are far more expensive, and to be of real benefit, I'd need so many that I might as well have more antivehicle units instead. I suspect Stealthsuit Markerdrone squads are perhaps the ticket, with 3+ stealthsuits and 6+ markerdrones, but that's huge points. 80 points per markerlight hit, compared to about 45 for pathfinders, once you add in the devilfish. Still, they'd be likely to survive until the end of the game if deployed properly.

I really regret not having effective indirect fire units and close combat units that don't strike last and die with every wound. I guess I regret not being a marine player.

What are other people's experiences against 5th edition marines? Does anybody have any workable 5th edition tactics?

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Old 12 Nov 2008, 06:33   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 5th Edition Battles against Marines

Honestly, because of cover saves I've found the Pathfinders far more useful. Plus with their Devilfish I can use it now for other Fire Warriors, and leave the Pathfinders relatively static. The other thing I've found is that the Helios and the Deathrain are far more useful now, with their respective ranges comparable to their AP. By that I mean you can wipe out Marines at closer ranges because they can't save against them, unless they're inside cover, while Deathrain you're relying on pure strength to get as many wounds as possible. Fireknives aren't focused, so they aren't nearly as useful now.

The Pathfinders, I find their best use to be tagging important targets that you want dead for sure. Get 3, you can remove cover saves. Two more, you've got a BS 5, no cover possible, instant pain coming. This is especially useful for those priority vehicles you want dead. Unlike most armies, the cover issue isn't as big of an issue with us, as they can naturally save against it, so volume of fire is critical on troops.

As whats been noted before, the only truly useful Special Commander is Shas'O R'myr.
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Old 12 Nov 2008, 07:42   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 5th Edition Battles against Marines

You might want to look into Plasma Rifles for your crisis. It is quite possibly the most versatile weapon a suit can have. It cuts through all armor, takes down light vehicles, 2+'s anything toughness 4 (so most MEQs and TEQs). As much as I like the idea of pinning, I still don't think it makes up for the decrease in range and close range firepower compared to the Pulse Rifle. As the previous poster stated, Pathfinders got a new breath of life in 5th. If your in-law is using cover then either take it away from him with markerlights or make it his only defense by negating his armor. Sure he's still getting a 4+, but it's not a 3+ and now you know where he's going to keep his forces moving.
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Old 12 Nov 2008, 08:08   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 5th Edition Battles against Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild
Plus with their Devilfish I can use it now for other Fire Warriors, and leave the Pathfinders relatively static.
Would you be allowed to use the Pathfinder Devilfish on other Fire Warrior Squads? Seeing as it&#39;s a dedicated transport vehicle, I was of the impression that they could only be used for the squad that purchased the vehicle, i.e. the Pathfinders.
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Old 12 Nov 2008, 08:28   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 5th Edition Battles against Marines

Not in 5th - If you have a transport it will happily ferry anyone about now - Makes it alot easier to squeeze PF&#39;s into your list now days. You can give their transport to Firewarriors.
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Old 12 Nov 2008, 11:10   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition Battles against Marines

You mention your close combat units striking last, from that I&#39;d assume your not fielding kroot hounds, try them. They probably won&#39;t take out an entire unit before they have time to strike back but they may blunt the marines attacks enough that you take somewhat less pain from them and last a bit longer.
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Old 12 Nov 2008, 13:20   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 5th Edition Battles against Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFishing
Not in 5th - If you have a transport it will happily ferry anyone about now - Makes it alot easier to squeeze PF&#39;s into your list now days. You can give their transport to Firewarriors.
REALLY??? good lord, I don&#39;t know much about 5th ed, but gee I wasnt expecting that!
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Old 12 Nov 2008, 16:26   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 5th Edition Battles against Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liinsivi
You might want to look into Plasma Rifles for your crisis. It is quite possibly the most versatile weapon a suit can have. It cuts through all armor, takes down light vehicles, 2+&#39;s anything toughness 4 (so most MEQs and TEQs). As much as I like the idea of pinning, I still don&#39;t think it makes up for the decrease in range and close range firepower compared to the Pulse Rifle. As the previous poster stated, Pathfinders got a new breath of life in 5th. If your in-law is using cover then either take it away from him with markerlights or make it his only defense by negating his armor. Sure he&#39;s still getting a 4+, but it&#39;s not a 3+ and now you know where he&#39;s going to keep his forces moving.
Plasma Rifles are my absolute favorite weapon for a Crisis suit. But once cover saves are added, it&#39;s less effective than a missile pod as the MP has more shots at long range for cheaper. Without effective markerlight support, there&#39;s little point in taking plasma rifles. I also went with the FB/MP layout as I need more anti-vehicle, and with 48 str 5 weapons and 40 str 4 weapons, I wasn&#39;t worried about infantry. Although, the effective performance of my army seems that 88 anti-infantry weapons isn&#39;t enough...

The Carbinewarrior is a new idea. I&#39;ve always used the rifle, before. I&#39;ve never gotten a single successful pin with them, but the idea was that they were mobile shooters for taking objectives. They can move and shoot with a chance to pin advancing infantry outside of their rapid fire range. If they have to retreat, they can fire on the unit threatening them, while staying out of assault range. In practice, they require lot&#39;s of cover to keep them alive, and normally roll 1-2 for running distance or armor/cover saves or to hit.

I find Pathfinders to be the first target, and one Whirlwind shot removes enough Pathfinders to negate the effectiveness of the unit. Strange considering the unit doesn&#39;t actually kill anything. In a slightly larger game, I could probably find room for a stealth markerlight team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauist
You mention your close combat units striking last, from that I&#39;d assume your not fielding kroot hounds, try them. They probably won&#39;t take out an entire unit before they have time to strike back but they may blunt the marines attacks enough that you take somewhat less pain from them and last a bit longer.
The Kroot are doing better than any other unit. I&#39;ve only just started adding Kroot, haven&#39;t tried Kroot hounds yet. As assaulters, they are holding their own for a while. Terribly vulnerable to flamers, though. Not sure if Kroot hounds will make a positive difference, as it means increasing the size of an already huge squad and reducing available shooters.

I&#39;d like to hear about whether people are finding 5th edition more difficult against Marines. Does this seem balanced? Any new tactics, like Kroot vehicle assaults?
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Old 12 Nov 2008, 17:53   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 5th Edition Battles against Marines

Just a quick comment here:

I believe that you&#39;re massively overcompensating for the new scoring rules. For a while, I was doing this as well, running five troops in my 1500 point lists. However, after a while, I realized that this really is not necessary. Fire Warriors are good, I&#39;ll give them that. But they don&#39;t have the ability to do absolutely anything like Marines or the invincibility to ranged attacks of Eldar Pathfinders. Relying on them too much will severely reduce your firepower.

My 1500 point lists have gone down to three troops.
-One Static group of FW, sometimes with an Ethereal to prevent them from running.
-One mobile group of Firewarriors, often kept in reserve.
-One group of Kroot, which often boards my Pathfinder Devilfish.

This lets me spam plenty of battlesuits, while still having room for two tanks, one tank and two Piranas, a Skyray, etc.

Personally, especially when fighting marines, I feel that our elites and heavies must be increased to compensate for their strong troop choices. I&#39;ve never had a problem winning matches with this small number of troops; contesting opponent&#39;s objectives with Deep Strikers is quite effective, not to mention fluffy, as it goes along with the Tau&#39;s dislike of holding ground.
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Old 12 Nov 2008, 18:04   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 5th Edition Battles against Marines

Vespids and Sniper Teams have certainly lost their usefulness, or whats left of it. Pathfinders, Stealthsuits and Warfishes have an increase in value though. Stealthsuits can outflank from reserve or deep strike, popping right up on their side unexpectedly with a fusion blaster for some tank killing. Pathfinders are the spammers, tagging something important with so many markerlights it WILL die. Finally the Warfish, with objectives being so important, you need to bring the troops to capture, and what better way to do it than with a sqaud of Firewarriors riding in a beastly Devilfish. Also don&#39;t forget they can carry Kroot now, if you&#39;re inclined to bringing them as well.
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