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Question To Tau Tournament Veterans
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Old 16 May 2005, 09:44   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Default Question To Tau Tournament Veterans

I have a question for people who have played with a Mech- Tau list on tournaments.
The question is "How do you play a Mec- Tau list without getting below average in list sportsmanship?"

It would be helpfull if Waldo, Mal, DIzzy or TonkaTruckDriver, could post a 1700p mech list that they played with and diden't get negative points for.

Others are welcome to ansver to, i just respect the opinions of the above stated ;D

Help welcome!
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Old 16 May 2005, 10:33   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Question To Tau Tournament Veterans

Richard:

Just so there's no confusion, I'm not a Mech Tau player

As for the tournament thing, good question! And I think you can find my response to such, in these threads: here and here and finally here. This is just a couple reasons that may be why it could be possibly scored below average (but not always!). Granted this does not encompass the entire idea of Mech Tau, but it does have a bit to do with it. I personally am more of a Hybrid player. I prefer a bit of everything in my games and for example lists, you can see them in our sample army lists under hybrid (for an example at least).

Like all things that come to be in this game, any thing that "works" tends to become something that some will look down upon. So if below average sportsmanship is being put down for this style of play in your area, then that's saying something.

Just a note, I think everyone else should enjoy their game how they wish. I'm not much of a cut & dry player as I vary my style day by day and some days I feel like one way and some days I feel another. I like surprising my opponent with odd lists that magically work, or put up an incredible fight which is enjoyed, and not just regretted. I don't enjoy playing any kind of game, with any kind of style, no matter what it is, if my opponents aren't having a good time as well. So keeping that in mind, I'm not much for tournaments--I enjoy casual gaming far more. Tournaments tend to be a harem for power-gaming and what not, but there's also a lot of good people. So to each their own

Cheers!
-Mal
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Old 16 May 2005, 11:20   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Question To Tau Tournament Veterans

I ended with wery good sportmanship values at our local tournaments with my Mech list, but that is because i play fair, and second that i use forge world models so people like to watch the game and they usually like it much more is it is something different.

But the main reason is that i play for fun so i it doesn't matter for me if i win to much, so i usually have lot of points from sportmanship and painting but not so much from the games.
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Old 16 May 2005, 14:12   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Question To Tau Tournament Veterans

There's a lot you can do to improve your sportsmanship and composition scores during the actual game. Even if you have the cheesiest list imaginable, if you're polite, fair, amiable, have a well painted army, give your opponent a copy of your army list, perhaps describe some of the background/fluff of your army, etc, you can go a long way to convincing your opponent to give you good marks in sportsmanship and comp.

However, I'm curious why you think a Mech Tau army will receive bad marks in these departments? It's fluffy, themed, and challenging to play. Not to mention the fact that it's not as tournament viable or effective as other types of Tau lists. By its very nature, you can't possibly have more than 3 Railguns (none of which are twinlinked), not to mention the fact that you've invested 270+ points in non-scoring transports. Yes it's durable... but so is Deathwing, and I don't know anybody who thinks they're cheesy...

The thing with Mech Tau, is that the cheesiness comes not from list composition, but more from how it's played. On paper, Mech Tau seems horribly inefficient, and the typical opponent will laugh it off the table. However, in the hands of an experienced general, it becomes a very powerful list. To the average ignorant tournament player, my list is utter crap. However, my local gaming group has different opinions.

I'm planning on entering the Chacago GT with what is perhaps the most cheesed out Mech Tau list I can imagine. Everyone in my local gaming group laughed for a good 5-10 minutes as I brought in cheesy unit after cheesy unit in an Escalation test game we played the other day. However, as I say, the average tournament gamer would have no problem with the unit choices at all. On paper, they're just not that bad. However my friends know how devistating those units can be in the proper hands.

So at this point, it becomes all about perception. If I can delude my opponent into thinking that I made my army list choices based on fluff and theme all while giving them a fun game, I should be able to get good sportsmanship marks. Towards that end, I've been working on writing up a small fluff section that I'm going to print on the back of my army list that I'll hand out to my opponents. I've been working on a diorama that will convey the "rapid-response" and "fast-attack" theme of my army. And I've also been working on touching up all the miniatures and putting together some neat conversions. After all, it's much easier to lose to a well painted army.

Hope that helps!
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"i like to think of playing against my list as being like punching jelly. you put all your effort in but it just moves out of the way and you cause no damage. then your arm is covered in jelly. and the chicks come out and start wrestling in the jelly, and i drink a beer with stone cold steve austin, and we watch the chicks jelly wrestling, and then the slap-bass funk starts wakka chakka wakka wakka woh" -- Spooky, describing Mech Tau

"You can of course make a list that attempts to work via fragility and easy VP donation and Pathfinders fit into that just fine." -- kai
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Old 16 May 2005, 15:16   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Question To Tau Tournament Veterans

As a long time ork player I've been using orks exclusively in various forms - this year it's a Kult of Speed/Evil Sunz biker gang. All my stuff is generally painted with tournaments in mind and I've only now gotten around to finishing up my Tau to get them tournament ready. :-[ Next year will be the "Year of the Tau" for me.

To answer the question briefly: I think orks and Tau are probably amongst the most balanced lists out there. As a result it's very hard to put together a truly abusive army list that's going to raise a lot of hackles. Certain things like 3 railheads in a <2000 pt list might raise eyebrows but that depends - personally I'd probably take 2 railheads and an ion head because of this potential.

Tau and orks also generally don't win by massacre - while they can win big it usually comes at a price against a good opponent. So you don't have to worry too much on that front either although that also means you have trouble amassing battle points if those scores rely on straight VP differential (like this year's US GTs do).

That leaves a great deal of sportsmanship up to how nice a guy you are. On that front I will see if I can put some stuff together later tonight (I'm off to dinner right now).
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Old 16 May 2005, 18:37   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Question To Tau Tournament Veterans

Ok, I'm back and have put together some general tips on soft scores (aka Sportsmanship and (when used) composition). These are all IMHO and have been gathered from my personal experience as well as advice from veterans of the tournament circuit, some of which have placed very highly (including winning GTs). This isn't meant to be an exhaustive list, nor is it the bible to tournament play. YMMV.

Although many tournaments have done away with composition scores, many GTs still use them. In addition, your army's composition will make an impression on your opponent and can often affect their judgments about your sportsmanship. In other words, if you take a power-gamer or cheesehead list you are liable to get docked points.

Guidelines for Tau army lists
  • Variety is good. Give your opponents a variety of unit types, sizes, and shapes. Avoid "cookie cutter" lists which involve multiple identical units.
  • Use at least one slot from every FoC option - that means you need to take a Fast Attack option. Besides, pathfinders rock! 8)
  • Don't min-max your FW troops - in other words don't take on 6 man FW troop and 200 kroot.
  • Three railheads might hurt you - the truth is that 3 railheads is probably less effective than 2 plus 1 ionhead because ~75% of all armies at tournaments are MEQs with SMs making up the vast majority of those - nothing pisses off SM players more than multishot AP3 weapons. Of course that's pathetic but what are you going to do. ??? In any event, one ion cannon probably won't hurt you but 3 railheads start to give people the "cookie cutter army" reaction.
  • Don't play a pure stand & shoot army - aside from the fact that a purely static list isn't very competitive, it creates an incredibly boring game. Think about the typical IG or IW list and how many people play them and you'll know what I mean. You've already said you're playing mech but I figured this was good advice for anyone else.[/i]

I will probably have to add these in stages since it's a lot to type in one sitting
General Sportsmanship Tips
  • Personal Hygiene - shower the morning of the tournament. Use deoderant. Wear clean clothes. Comb your hair. Brush your teeth. I'm serious. Nobody likes to play against, nor near, a dirtbag that stinks and a room full of them makes for a brutal experience. :
  • Clothing - don't wear a T-shirt that's 2 sizes too small, jeans where the crotch hangs down around your knees and your a$$ is sticking out, your favorite death metal band's T-shirt with the naked sacrifice, or a hat with a marijuana leaf on it. I have nothing against people's personal tastes or dress style. However, if you end up playing the guy from the Christian right or the young republican or somebody very uptight you're going to make them uncomfortable and are liable to get docked (which is pathetic but happens).
  • Don't be a "fan boy." This is related to the above to an extent. Don't come looking like the comic book guy from the Simpsons[sup]TM[/sup]. Don't dress up as your favorite GW novel character or talk about how you want to marry a Sister of Battle. Avoid yelling "WAAAAGH!!!!" or "For the Emperor!" Really. Being into the fluff is great but pretending it's real is going to put off many mature players. The 10-year-olds might like you though....
  • Don't be a TFG. What is a TFG - That F--king Guy. In other words, the guy who brags about how great his army is, how he beats everyone at his club, who cheats, who argues rules constantly (even when he's obviously wrong), who pouts when something of his dies, who nudges models, who berates his opponent to friends, and the list goes on.... We all know the type. If you are one of those guys, grow up. You are very unlikely to do well, even if you win every single game, because you're going to get butchered on soft scores. Incidently these are usually the people who chipmunk you (give you very low scores) when you beat them.
  • Don't show up with a 64 oz. Big Gulp or 2 liter bottle of Mountain Dew and down it during the match. Same goes with drinking four cans of Red Bull during the match. If the venue allows you to bring in food: Don't eat over the table, dropping crumbs on the stuff. Don't talk with your mouth full. Don't eat something disgusting or that stinks like dirty feet. Always offer your opponent some.
  • Don't belch, fart, or exude other bodily sounds or odors. Ok, this one is stupid but you'd be surprised at how disgusting some people can be in public..... :
  • Have a printed (as in with a computer printer) army list for each opponent. That means you have to bring along enough to hand out one copy at each game (for the opponent to keep), plus for the organizers, plus have extras. Your list should take the form of those shown in White Dwarf battle reports - A name for the unit, it's #'s, unit type, extra gear, and point cost. At the top you should have your army name, the list/codex you're using, your name, and your contact info (an email address is handy). A bit of fluff is nice too. Laminating the lists (if you want to spend the money) looks really great. Do not hand out an Army Builder output - while it's really common a lot of the older veterans don't like AB. The old style list looks better... 8)
  • Always pick up failed rolls to hit, wound, etc. not the ones that succeeded. I always suspect someone is cheating when they start picking up the die rolls that supposedly succeeded.
  • Don't horde your dice - refusing to let someone use your dice immediately raises suspicions even if you're 100% honest. It's just bad form too.
  • Let your opponent decide how many models are under a template. Unless you notice he's routinely under counting (i.e., cheating) it just makes them feel better than when you get out your template and count the hits up without their input.
  • Sit down or stand in one place during your opponent's turn. Don't look over his shoulder, pace around the table, or wander off to watch someone else's game because you're bored or just curious.
  • Don't touch your opponent's models unless he gives you permission first.
  • Don't cheat. Yeah I know but it needs to be said.

I'll post some of the "Jedi Mind tricks" later tonight
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The general who wins a battle makes many calculations before the battle is fought. - Sun Tzu

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Old 16 May 2005, 21:30   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Question To Tau Tournament Veterans

Nice tips* ;D

The thing i am working om the most right now is my list..
My first draft looked like this:
1700p Tau Army:
* *
::HQ::
Shas’el; TL Plasma Rifle; Missile Pod; HW Multi-Tracker* * * * * * * *
98p

Shas’el; Plasma Rifle; TL Missile Pod; HW Multi-Tracker* * * * * * *
96p
* *
::Elites::

6 Stealth Suits* * * * * *
180p

6 Stealth Suits
180p


::Troops::

12 Fire Warriors;* * * * * *
Devilfish; Decoy Launchers, Multi-tracker, Targeting Array* * *
220p

12 Fire Warriors;
Devilfish; Decoy Launchers, Multi-tracker, Targeting Array* *
220p

14 kroot
98p

16 kroot
112p

::Heavy Support::
Hammerhead; Railgun; Burst cannons; Decoy launchers, Multi-Tracker,
Target-Lock, Blacksunfilter* * * * * * * * * * *
175p

Hammerhead; Railgun; Burst cannons; Decoy launchers, Multi-Tracker,
Target-Lock* * * * * * * *
170p

Hammerhead; Ion Cannon; Burst cannons; Decoy launchers, Multi-Tracker,
Target-Lock
150p

For that list i got 6 of 12 composition, wich i can understand sence i was low on troops..

Then i changed the pathfinders for 30 kroot, 1 squad 14 one 16, and i am waiting for the responce fron the judges right now..

Thay are going to have a separate list composition, that is set by the judges, and are added to your score at game 1 and then again att game 5 if you are top 50%
so it is quite important..
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Old 16 May 2005, 21:57   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Question To Tau Tournament Veterans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
For that list i got 6 of 12 composition, wich i can understand sence i was low on troops..
Thing is... with Tau, that's not necessarily the case. If you showed up with 72 Firewarriors, I'm sure you'd see a LOT more complaining.
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"i like to think of playing against my list as being like punching jelly. you put all your effort in but it just moves out of the way and you cause no damage. then your arm is covered in jelly. and the chicks come out and start wrestling in the jelly, and i drink a beer with stone cold steve austin, and we watch the chicks jelly wrestling, and then the slap-bass funk starts wakka chakka wakka wakka woh" -- Spooky, describing Mech Tau

"You can of course make a list that attempts to work via fragility and easy VP donation and Pathfinders fit into that just fine." -- kai
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Old 16 May 2005, 22:10   #9 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Question To Tau Tournament Veterans

Yea i believe so to, the problem is that they have this min 30% troop rule (excluding transports), otherwise you get - to your comp..

Do you think the els should have missiles or fusion?
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Old 17 May 2005, 13:58   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Question To Tau Tournament Veterans

Missiles. The list looks fine but I think you could get docked for nothing having a FA choice - not to mention PFs are just too good to not take at the 1700 pt. level. Your seeker missile(s) are also useless since you don't have any other MLs. I'd probably drop one of the FW FoF teams to get the kroot in the list instead (if you want you could just take one small static team of FWs which can come in really handy at times).

I would also consider taking 6 stealths per unit rather than 3 units of 4 - with 4 stealths it only takes one casualty to force a morale check which I don't like.
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