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Stealth Suits and Assaults
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Old 29 Oct 2008, 03:49   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Stealth Suits and Assaults

I'm sure this might have come up before but I just wanted to clarify things.

In 4th edition if a unit assaulted a unit of stealth suits. The stealth suits counted as being in cover and thus would get their attacks in first.

However in 5th edition this ability has absolutely no effect because the only time you are affected by 'cover' when getting into a close combat, is only when you had to roll a difficult terrain test to launch your assault.

So that until a new tau codex is released, stealth suits fight just like everyone else in close combat at their base initiative making them more vulnerable in close combat.
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Old 29 Oct 2008, 04:45   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stealth Suits and Assaults

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
In 4th edition if a unit assaulted a unit of stealth suits. The stealth suits counted as being in cover and thus would get their attacks in first.

However in 5th edition this ability has absolutely no effect because the only time you are affected by 'cover' when getting into a close combat, is only when you had to roll a difficult terrain test to launch your assault.
Nope. Read page 36, "assaulting through cover". Stealths will still (other things being equal) get to strike first.
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Old 29 Oct 2008, 05:31   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stealth Suits and Assaults

I'm looking at it right now and I must be missing something. It says "go through difficult or dangerous terrain". I don't see how the stealths can still strike first. They are considered to be in cover, not having the cover in front of them.

Perhaps you could point me a little closer?
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Old 29 Oct 2008, 06:15   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stealth Suits and Assaults

disorientation, and surprise. Perhaps the stealthsuits go ninja, and the enemy while disoriented gets jumped. or alternatively, the space marines with exceptional senses, throw a frag to make up for lost ground.

a what if game it appears.

The tau codex refers the stealth suits to be treated in cover when assaulted, thus mitigating the situation to a prime point, when they are assaulted. If they were given the stealth shroud, and a cover save, on top of a 3+ its a bit much. Its not often a unit like this is around.

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Old 29 Oct 2008, 06:22   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stealth Suits and Assaults

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pseudomancer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
In 4th edition if a unit assaulted a unit of stealth suits. The stealth suits counted as being in cover and thus would get their attacks in first.

However in 5th edition this ability has absolutely no effect because the only time you are affected by 'cover' when getting into a close combat, is only when you had to roll a difficult terrain test to launch your assault.
Nope. Read page 36, "assaulting through cover". Stealths will still (other things being equal) get to strike first.
I think you should re-read the rules yourself bro, you got them wrong.
Stealth suits get nothing in 5th edition.
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Old 29 Oct 2008, 06:25   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stealth Suits and Assaults

I see where your confusion lies. In the 4th edition rulebook it was stated that if you assaulted units that were in cover then your opponent attacks as though their initiative was 10. In the 5th edition rulebook it works the opposite way. If you've had to move through difficult terrain to make an assault then your initiative is lowered to 1.

You're correct in that it makes no mention of assaulting someone who is in cover. However, it should be treated the same way. This is because if you're assaulting someone who is in cover then you'll have to take a difficult terrain test to get to them. Therefore treating stealthsuits as though they are in cover for the sake of being assaulted is the same thing just backwards.

This is actually very interesting because people at my GW are still playing it the old way. It's different because you could assault out of difficult terrain and assault at regular initiative in 4th edition. In 5th edition that's not really the case anymore. This is advantageous to me. Thanks for pointing this out.

In any case, I think Akaiyou we can all agree that this is a situation where it becomes a difference between rules as written and rules as intended. And when you translate it as I have then it's a pretty clear cut case leaning towards rules as intended. My opinion, assaulting stealth suits still drops your initiative.
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Old 29 Oct 2008, 07:34   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stealth Suits and Assaults

Ooh, good point. If you had to make a test, not if you're assaulting someone in cover. Screwy.
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Old 29 Oct 2008, 08:50   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stealth Suits and Assaults

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
I see where your confusion lies. In the 4th edition rulebook it was stated that if you assaulted units that were in cover then your opponent attacks as though their initiative was 10. In the 5th edition rulebook it works the opposite way. If you've had to move through difficult terrain to make an assault then your initiative is lowered to 1.

You're correct in that it makes no mention of assaulting someone who is in cover. However, it should be treated the same way. This is because if you're assaulting someone who is in cover then you'll have to take a difficult terrain test to get to them. Therefore treating stealthsuits as though they are in cover for the sake of being assaulted is the same thing just backwards.

This is actually very interesting because people at my GW are still playing it the old way. It's different because you could assault out of difficult terrain and assault at regular initiative in 4th edition. In 5th edition that's not really the case anymore. This is advantageous to me. Thanks for pointing this out.

In any case, I think Akaiyou we can all agree that this is a situation where it becomes a difference between rules as written and rules as intended. And when you translate it as I have then it's a pretty clear cut case leaning towards rules as intended. My opinion, assaulting stealth suits still drops your initiative.
I STRONGLY disagree with your point of view my friend.
Going by RAW stealth do not get any bonus like they did in 4th edition. In a tournament they would get no bonus either as the RAW is used. And further more this was not even mentioned in the Tau FAQ thus there was no 'intention' to keep it the same by the designers.

There are many many many rules out there that became obsolete with 5th edition. Trying to get 'interpretations' of them to make them still useful in 5th edition is more akin to making house rules than following the rules as they are.

By that same token the Tyranid Carnifex biomorph 'thornback' used to make your fex count as 20 models in close combat for purpose of outnumbering. However the new rules make this biomorph obsolete since counting as 20 models means squat now.

Does this mean that if I played a game against you, and allowed you to keep ur stealth suits 'in cover' feature to lower my initiative in an assault as if i were rolling for difficult terrain. That you'd be so kind to allow my thornback to count as 10 extra wounds inflicted on you in combat resolution which would be the 'new' intended purpose of a thornback biomorph.

Do you see how if we start making up our own rules it can get very ugly fast? It's best to just take it with a grain of salt, follow the raw and wait for a new codex or an FAQ change. Until then, forcing your opponent to go at Initiative 1 vs stealth suits is the same as cheating to win.
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Old 29 Oct 2008, 15:52   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stealth Suits and Assaults

Its stuff like this that make me wonder why 40k is so popular. The rules and the companies attention to them are terrible.
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Old 08 Nov 2008, 00:25   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stealth Suits and Assaults

Being Very interested in the outcome of this, I e-mailed GW Myself. They pretty much Said that the Stealth Field Generator no longer gives any close combat benefit, because of the new wording in the rules.

Here it is:

Quote:
Hello,
Unfortunately, the Tau Stealth Field Generator no longer gives any
advantages in assault.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve
you better!

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-----Original Message-----
From: Jacob Fisher [mailto:wyvern721@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:19 PM
To: US Customer Service
Subject: Warhammer 40,000 Rules Query

Hello, my Name is Jacob and am Currently enjoying Warhammer 40k with the

Tau Army. However, with the Release of 5th edition, rules have changed,
and certain codex rules which depended on the wording of the rules in
4th edition which have now changed, creating ambiguity. I would like
arbitration on one of these issues, since I could find no solution in
the Errata or FAQ regarding Tau.

Certain Tau units are equipped with a Stealth Field Generator. The Entry

says that Units with the Stealth Field Generator count as being in cover

if assaulted. The Assaulting Through Cover entry on Page 37 of the 5th
Edition Rule Book says that Units assaulting through cover take
penalties if they have to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test to
reach the defending models. Whenever units assault Tau models with
Stealth Field Generators over open ground, does the Assaulting unit Take

the Penalty for assaulting through cover? The Stealth field Generator
says that they count as being in cover, but even so, no difficult or
dangerous terrain test would be taken if they were assaulted over open
ground.

What I need to know is this: Do units with the Stealth Field Generator
lose that benefit in 5th edition? Do units assaulting models with the
Stealth Field Generator have to take a difficult terrain test? Or do
assaulting units Take the Assaulting through cover penalty with no
terrain test required?


Any Clarification would be Helpful.

So that's pretty much it. Stealthsuits get no CC benefit form their Stealth Field Generators. As it says in the Codex, they still count as being in cover when assaulted, but that means squat anyway since it doesn't mandate any Difficult or dangerous terrain tests. Turns out to be a bit of a nerf for them.
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