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Seeker Missiles and Night Fight
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Old 24 Oct 2008, 05:28   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Seeker Missiles and Night Fight

I've got three Piranha on their way and one of the way I want to use them is as fast Seeker Missile platforms. They should be able to quickly allow me access to firing upon more vulnerable side and rear armours. This led me to wonder:

I suspect this has been discussed before, but my search of past topics was unsuccessful in answering this question.

Assuming that Night Fighting is in effect (or another similar effect such as firing at a Stealth Suit team or Shrouded GKs), say I hit an enemy unit with a markerlight. I use it to fire a Seeker Missile from one of my vehicles.

Do I need to check if the vehicle carrying the firing Seeker Missile can spot the target? The Codex seems to imply 'yes' as it states that the vehicle fires the missile and that the firing is "resolved normally in all regards".

Similarly, if I do need to test for Night Fighting and fail to 'see' my target, it would not remove a counter, correct?

Have I missed something elsewhere in the Codex or perhaps in a FAQ?

Thanks.
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Old 24 Oct 2008, 05:38   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles and Night Fight

The unit firing the seeker missile does not need line of sight to the target, as they have no control over where it goes. It's about halfway down the section on p. 31. Only the markerlight unit needs to be able to see the target. Therefore night fighting works the same way. As long as the target is hit with a markerlight, it can be hit by a seeker missile.
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Old 24 Oct 2008, 05:41   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles and Night Fight

I understand that it does not need LoS. It just seems to me that LoS and being able to see the target at all are two separate things. So that failing to roll high enough to 'spot' a target is not the same as not having LoS.

But mayhaps I'm wrong.
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Old 24 Oct 2008, 05:49   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles and Night Fight

The missile does not care if whatever is carrying it can see the target, only that the target has a big red dot on it.
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Quote:
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you should know by now GW likes to do it backwards... "Mr. Tank driver, drive me closer so I can hit it with my sword!"
Hope. This is not a plan. This is not a solution. It is reaction.
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Old 24 Oct 2008, 06:42   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles and Night Fight

Missles cant see you either way. also markerlights can be used to negate night fight as well as SMS think of it as SMS on crack and 10points a pop. on a real note run a sky ray if your going to run seekers. SkyRay is one of the best and most underestimated item the tau have. I can fire all 6 missles in 1 round and take out a very importent target like assualt marines that are going to charge next round and well if they did not land in cover there dead and you can add another 2 from upgrades. If not you still have a ship that can fire 4 shots and support your suits and firewarriors with markerlights hitting on 3s or 4s if you dont upgrade.
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Old 24 Oct 2008, 13:23   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles and Night Fight

actually this is a pretty good question. the vehicle "has no control under normal circumstances" you have to take the whole thing. A marker light "allows a vehicle to fire one seeker missile". So they have control to use a seeker missile, if there is a marker light on the target. (thus the seeker missile goes off when you resolve shooting for the tank)

Nothing says they fire as a SMS, if you find that rule please share

And if they expend a marker charge to fire a seeker missile, the shot is resolved as normal except they only need to roll a 2 to hit, and you don't need line of sight. That means that they get cover saves, that you would check for night fight rules, or stealth suits, or whatever else. It actually goes out of its way to state that everything else is resolved *as normal*.

But it is checked "before the unit fires and after a target is selected". So you would not expend a marker light token unless you were actually able to shoot the missile.

It isn't how I'd prefer this was resolved, but it is RAW. So in tournaments it is what you can expect.
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Old 24 Oct 2008, 14:40   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles and Night Fight

Remember that the seeker is not technically a vehicles weapon - it is not used at all by the vehicle. The model calling in the strike is the one which is in "control".

If you've hit and seen with the marker, the missile is following the light, so it won't have to roll.

I can't give you a word for word RAW, as I've not got my dex with me I'm afraid.


Quote:
thus the seeker missile goes off when you resolve shooting for the tank
This is wrong - once you have hit with the marker, you resolve the seeker fire then, you don't wait until you come to the vehicle to fire it.

Quote:
and you can add another 2 from upgrades.
Sky Ray can't take additional seekers, IIRC.

Quote:
also markerlights can be used to negate night fight as well
Nope, markers can't negate the effect of nightfight on a target.
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Old 24 Oct 2008, 14:43   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles and Night Fight

The words I'm looking at are:
"The mechanism is remote and responds only to markerlight users."
"The missiles do not need LoS from the vehicle they are mounted on to the vehicle."

I take the markerlight wording to say that "the shooting is resolved normally in all regards" to say you have to roll a dice to fire the missile. Shooting refers only to the firing of the missile, not the targeting or spoting.

If you want to get technical with RAW, then your also not allowed to shoot seeker missiles at any Tyrinids nor any organic construct. Last 3 words up there. " to the vehicle" So I don't believe in RAW, I think its about intent. And this is a perfect reason why. Of course you should be able to shoot a missile at any target you want. Even a tent in the middle of the desert or a camels butt.
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Quote:
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you should know by now GW likes to do it backwards... "Mr. Tank driver, drive me closer so I can hit it with my sword!"
Hope. This is not a plan. This is not a solution. It is reaction.
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Old 24 Oct 2008, 15:11   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles and Night Fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saffron
Remember that the seeker is not technically a vehicles weapon - it is not used at all by the vehicle. The model calling in the strike is the one which is in "control".

If you've hit and seen with the marker, the missile is following the light, so it won't have to roll.

I can't give you a word for word RAW, as I've not got my dex with me I'm afraid.


Quote:
thus the seeker missile goes off when you resolve shooting for the tank
This is wrong - once you have hit with the marker, you resolve the seeker fire then, you don't wait until you come to the vehicle to fire it.

Quote:
and you can add another 2 from upgrades.
Sky Ray can't take additional seekers, IIRC.

Quote:
also markerlights can be used to negate night fight as well
Nope, markers can't negate the effect of nightfight on a target.
These are common mistakes, if you get your dex out and check the word for word you can see why. Under the listing for marker lights, it says that they "can be used to allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile" This is pretty cut and dry. The vehicle is allowed to fire a seeker missile for the expense of a marker token.

It absolutely is fired when resolving the vehicles shots. Keep in mind a marker token can only be expended when a unit is shooting at said squad, and it has to be expended before shooting. According to the way you are saying to resolve it, you couldn't actually use a seeker missile unless you were firing a networked marker light. (a squad can't use tokens it applies unless they are networked) But this is a side argument, see the real one later in this post.

Raw on this is pretty clear.

You and I may both wish to play by RAI, and I do in most casual games, but in a tournament they will be going by RAW, so it is important to know what RAW is.

To togashi johnathan:
The seeker missile never says it ignores cover saves. The SMS says both doesn't require LOS, AND ignores cover. It is worded differently. A railgun doesn't specify that your opponent gets a cover save, so does the railgun ignore cover too? The RAW say nothing about seeker ignoring cover, or ignoring night fight. You could probably argue that ignoring LOS ignores night fight, but if you argue that, then D cannons and vibro cannons that ignore LOS would ignore night fight as well. This simply isn't the case.

You can't say that just because it doesn't specify that it follows the normal rules, then it doesn't. It goes the other way. If it doesn't specifically state that it goes against the normal rules, then it has to abide by them. Hopefully they faq it. Until then, RAW is pretty clear.


Lets go over a step by step reading of seeker missiles.
1. The missiles do not need a line of sight from the vehicle they are mounted on to the vehicle (I never noticed that this should say target here, hopefully no tournament rule boyz notice it either. otherwise you'd need los to a non vehicle). This says nothing about cover, unlike the SMS which states it ignores intervening cover unless the target model is touching it.

2. Draw a straight line of sight from the vehicle to determine if you hit front side or rear armor. No confusion here.

3. "ordinarily, the vehicle carrying the missile has no control over them and cannot fire them itself". Okay, so it can't shoot by itself ordinarily

4. so how does it fire? a marker token can be used "to allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5". This is blatantly clear that the missile is fired by the vehicle, and should be resolved in the vehicles shooting resolution. If you don't believe me, look it up. it's on page 29.

Do they get cover? show me where it says they don't. Does it ignore night fight? show me where it says it does.

Thats the word for word from RAW. I'd GLADLY be wrong, but in this case I don't see how I am. I made the same assumptions as you did when reading the codex, but we were both mistaken, for me it was because of the convoluted way the rules for seeker missiles are layed out that got me.
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Old 24 Oct 2008, 16:03   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles and Night Fight

Go back and read all of my posts on this. Never once did I ever say seekers ignore cover. Wind77 made the SMS comparison.

http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/4...FAQ_V4-0-1.pdf

On the top right. Clearly states that seeker missiles ignore nightfight. Figure the blokes over at GW figured they FAQ'd it once, don't need to re-do it every edition. As there are no rules that counter this FAQ, I'd say its still valid.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enderwiggin
you should know by now GW likes to do it backwards... "Mr. Tank driver, drive me closer so I can hit it with my sword!"
Hope. This is not a plan. This is not a solution. It is reaction.
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