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Space Marine Insanity
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 04:05   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Space Marine Insanity

Here is a fun army from the new Space Marine codex that slaughtered me.

We were playing a team game, 3500 points per team.

Two Tau players each with 1750(one of which was myself), three space marine players, a 1750 and two 875.

Except for one drop pod deepstriking dreadnought, the two 875 marine players were your standard affair. The 1750 player was another story. His army consisted of:

3 dreadnoughts with multimeltas and a close combat army. Two were Ironclad(+1 to armor on all sides). All were in drop pods equipped with deathwing launchers that deepstriked on the first turn.

3 more dreadnoughts, each with twin-linked lascannons and twin-linked autocannon. One of which was Ironclad.

A master of the forge with a conversion beamer.

Two land speeder storms equipped with melta guns carrying 5 scouts each, two of which carried combi-meltas. Both outflanked.

Another scount squad with combi-meltas that outflanked.

A librarian intially attached to some Sternguard. The sternguard had AP3 bolters and the librarian had gate and machine curse. The librarian could deepstrike every turn using gate, and take any unit he needed with him. Machine curse autoglances vehicles.

The space marines got first turn. We wisely opted to stay in reserve to avoid our vehicle getting raped by the four deepstriking dreadnoughts. That unfortunately meant our army came in peacemeal, allowing the individual units to be picked off. Worse yet, none of the outflanking scouts came onto the board until after we did. The first landspeeder storm the outflanked dropped scounts who wiped my one of my Hammerhead out with a combi-melta the turn after it arrived.

Ultimately we got slaughtered by the Space Marines and conceded before the game even finished. They just had way too many cheesy tricks they could pull.

Tactics advice for fighting such an army in the future would be welcomed. Otherwise, its just a heads up as to what kind of armies you might encounter.
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 06:53   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Space Marine Insanity

O.o I think some thing I said in the spam thread needs to be re-said here; the new marine 'dex fell out of the top of the cheese tree and hit every branch on the way down.

I have two marine players down here. have yet to Versus either. As for tactics, I can't help you. But I thank you for the heads up.
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 08:10   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Space Marine Insanity

First off, going into a game 'fearing' a 'cheezy' army is no way to take it. I hate Chaos Daemons and abwhore playing against them, but I will still bring my full brunt to bear against them...have faith in your vehicles.

Now onto some tactics.

First off looking into your list, you should have most likely actually deployed everything onto the board. Focus all your forces to one side of the board or the other, but don't leave them peacemealed across your deployment zone.

Deepstriking Dreadnoughts are scary, I should know...I field lots of them, however, Tau have a unique ability that lets your tanks have all kinds of cool tricks, your hammerheads can move 12" and still fire, which means you will benifit from a coversave ALOT for your vehicles, on top of that Disruption pods make it harder still to destroy a tank, admittedly deepstriking will negate that most of the time, but in the first few turns there shouldn't be too much threat of lascannon snipes or such.

Iron clad Dreads are still AV10 on the back, so try and get some rear shots on them, furthermore they are very close range oriented, and with the number of STR10 shots you can put into them you shouldn't have much of a hard time putting them down, even immobilized they're jacked up.

The master of the Forge is soft, he's only got 2 wounds, and any amount of massed fire will drop him. Get up close and personal, that beamer is crap inside 18" and you'll drop the master and his squad with enough fire. Gogo firewarriors.

The scouts are soft. They're BS3 WS3 and have 4+ saves, which makes them the worst unit in the SM army. With them outflanking, if your more than 12" from the board edge they can't assault you, and if your focused on one side or the other, their best option is to blow up 1 tank before you retaliate and take down the squad and possibly the speeder as well.

I use the librarian/Sternguard unit alot. Problem is firing those AP3 shots means they "get hot" so he runs the risk of killing off his own expensive models, and they are still just a marine...3+ saves and 1 wound. Go Go Ion cannon? even a sub round, or some massed seekers will kill these guys without an issue. Throw some suits at them with plasma and they'll drop like a rock. The Machine curse has a very short range, so he's gotta get close, AND if he's deepstriking he can only go 24" from where he's standing then scatter...and any doubles will kill off a guy...even more risky. So again it comes down to focus fire, and making sure he isn't fudging his rules.

Overall I'd say your biggest mistake was "fearing" the first turn. Hell put your stuff out there and give it to em. The SM players were more specialized to kill a vehicle heavy list rather than troops. Use cover, screen your troops with vehicles, and try to maintain over 12" so you get obscurements.

Remember...marines are still soft when it comes to shooting, and unless my dice just hate me, a good number of shots will destroy a unit. (2 crisis teams killed my 10 man sternguard without a loss to them)

Hope this helps.
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 15:00   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Space Marine Insanity

Ironclads are only armor 10 on the back? I took pulse shots against the dreads rear, only to have him claim it was armor 11 on the back.
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 17:45   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Space Marine Insanity

Yep, just checked it out. Tough nut from the front and side, crunchy and sweet from the back.
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 17:54   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Space Marine Insanity

There are several problems with your analysis GK.

The scounts aren't limited to 12" of the board. They are in land speeder storms, that menas 12" movement of the LS storm, 2" disembark, 6" assault for a total assault range of 20". Of course if they get into assault, it won't matter if they are "soft", I can't shoot them and they will proceed to crush me in CC.

Also, the army isn't just limited to anti-vehicle. As a said before, the drop pods are each equipped with deathwind launchers, which will rape my infantry. The DS dreadnoughts are equipped with close combat claws in addition to multimeltas. After their first turn DS in which they get a very good chance to each trash a vehicle, they will move towards and charge the nearest infantry squad on the second turn. Gating sternguard will shoot and destroy anyone out in the open, anywhere on the board. And the aforemention scouts will catch anyone within 20" of either board edge. And the twin-linked lascannons and autocannons on the other three dreadnaughts are perfect for downing crisis suits once they trash my vehicles.

I don't see my chances as being much better if I had started on the board.
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 19:07   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Space Marine Insanity

I may be wrong on this, as I haven't picked up the space marine codex yet, but I thought only half of your drop pods can drop on the first turn, the rest coming in as usual reserves, and per your list rundown the only three drop pods were ironclads. While this would still be two Ironclads, its a little more manageable.
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 20:43   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Space Marine Insanity

i think those SM player need to reread their codex since the ironclad cant have a TL autocannon and TL lascannon and you still need to hit with machine curse
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 21:32   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Space Marine Insanity

Commander, Positional Relay, 2 Shield Drones and a Stimulant Injector.

Half his Drop Pods come down in the first turn - So staying off the table can be a great idea against Marines - You just need to make sure you have control of your reserves.

Start with your Commander on the Table, If anything Deepstrikes near him just J RUN J away from it as fast as your stumpy legs will carry you (unless you are packing the fire power to kill it). In your 2nd turn you can use your Positional Relay to bring on a unit of your choice (if he is fielding Dreads I would recommend either a HH (Rail or Ion is you can get the back shot), or a Monat XV8 with TL FB. These should have a VERY good chance of popping a Dread. Turn 2 for him and the rest of his reserves will start to arrive, with most of your army off the table you are denying him targets.

Turn 3 - you have a choice, either use your Positional Relay again and bring in a unit of your choice on a 2 +, or randomly roll for everything (3+). I would make this decision based on two factors - what reserves he has left to come on, or wether you need to bring a particular unit into the fray to counter the threat.

Turn 4 - All his reserves will probably be in play now - so just let yourself roll for all your remaining units (coming in on a 2 +). You can then bring your troops/tanks on where they are needed (including outflanking or Deepstriking units) and grab objectives, blow up tanks etc.

His army is designed to hit hard from the start of the game, and make a mess of your Tanks/Gunline. I think your idea of holding these valuable units in reserve was a good one, it both denies him targets and a focus to his attack. With no targets to attack his troops should be pretty spread out, and as he has no control over his reserves the majority of them (if not all) should be on the table by turns 3/4. Using the Positional relay to delay your reserves arrival allows you to reverse his first strike tactics and do the same to him as he has done to you, you are just doing it in the later stages of the Game while his army is designed to do it at the beginning of them game.

If you play teams again your could both run this tactic, or just one of you - with the other player running the Gunline/Bait. The player on the table will take heavy losses but you should be able to take out the early assult part of his army (using his own tactics against him) and have the bulk of your forces arrive in time to reinforce whats left of your friends army and hold off the other Marines rolling down the table.

Give it a try - the worse that can happen is another pasting, and either way I think you will seriously hack off your opponent.

Good luck!!
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 22:13   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Space Marine Insanity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanixis
There are several problems with your analysis GK.

The scounts aren't limited to 12" of the board. They are in land speeder storms, that menas 12" movement of the LS storm, 2" disembark, 6" assault for a total assault range of 20". Of course if they get into assault, it won't matter if they are "soft", I can't shoot them and they will proceed to crush me in CC.

Also, the army isn't just limited to anti-vehicle. As a said before, the drop pods are each equipped with deathwind launchers, which will rape my infantry. The DS dreadnoughts are equipped with close combat claws in addition to multimeltas. After their first turn DS in which they get a very good chance to each trash a vehicle, they will move towards and charge the nearest infantry squad on the second turn. Gating sternguard will shoot and destroy anyone out in the open, anywhere on the board. And the aforemention scouts will catch anyone within 20" of either board edge. And the twin-linked lascannons and autocannons on the other three dreadnaughts are perfect for downing crisis suits once they trash my vehicles.

I don't see my chances as being much better if I had started on the board.
And yet, if you put vehicles between the board edge and your troops, they can't get through to your squishies. OR he'll get in combat with 1 unit, and the rest fall back to kill. I had indeed counted on that long scout range, BUT with your forces concentrated, he'll have 5 scouts (the max the transport can carry) against 12 - 24 fire warriors? You should still win. Furthermore the Scout sergeants with combi-meltas means he won't have power weapons and have limited attacks.

Deathwind launchers are AP -...so who cares? Some wounds yes, but nothing that will wipe your whole army. A whirlwind will do more damage.

Again, using STR10 weapons who cares about dreads? I rarely have them survive games, and you should let your opponents help, or feed them to his stuff so you can down his vehicles and such. They can't assault the turn they land so you get to shoot at them, enough fire will kill 1 or 2, and they won't ALL be on the table turn 1, he only gets to drop Half his drop pods.

To me it sounds like you are just unsure of how to play a tau force against marines. They aren't all that powerful...still, I have beat them in 7 games since the new dex, and only tied once.

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