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Seeker Cover saves.
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Old 07 Oct 2008, 21:55   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Default Seeker Cover saves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightperson
Quote:
Side note: Seekers determine fireability by drawing los between markerlight and target, and cover by drawing a line between the missile launcher itself and the target. See codex for details. =) Sometimes folks do lock things too quickly, it's always dissapointing to read through a lengthy thread, and not be able to respond.
Oh boy, here we go again! I don't want to hijack this thread and go back to that argument, but my opinion (quickly) is that there is no cover save from the missile for intervening terrain, and the line is only drawn to figure out which facing of a vehicle is hit. If you want to head over to the Tau board I'll happily pick up the sword again, but not here.
Now, IIRC, you always get a cover save for intervening terrain, even if the weapon does not require LOS, such as in the case of a SMS. Why would the seeker have an exception?
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Old 07 Oct 2008, 22:05   #2 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Seeker Cover saves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightperson
Quote:
Side note: Seekers determine fireability by drawing los between markerlight and target, and cover by drawing a line between the missile launcher itself and the target. See codex for details. =) Sometimes folks do lock things too quickly, it's always dissapointing to read through a lengthy thread, and not be able to respond.
Oh boy, here we go again! I don't want to hijack this thread and go back to that argument, but my opinion (quickly) is that there is no cover save from the missile for intervening terrain, and the line is only drawn to figure out which facing of a vehicle is hit. If you want to head over to the Tau board I'll happily pick up the sword again, but not here.
Now, IIRC, you always get a cover save for intervening terrain, even if the weapon does not require LOS, such as in the case of a SMS. Why would the seeker have an exception?
So at the GW store near me, I was told that SMS only gives cover if the person is IN the terrain! Looks like we need to bet the BRB out. Anyone have it handy?
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Old 07 Oct 2008, 22:09   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Seeker Cover saves.

It's been argued for awhile for seeker missiles, but SMS clearly states no questions asked that you have to be in the terrain for cover saves.
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Old 07 Oct 2008, 22:35   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Seeker Cover saves.

well, like everyone else I'll give my two cents. The wording on page 31 for it travling in a straight line is only talking about the purposes of which side of the vehicle it strikes from.

The only other thing that it says about seeker missiles is that it requires no line of sight. One could argue (and many have) that the lack of need to check line of sight omits the option for cover. But no where does it say you only check for cover when you check for line of sight. In fact, it says to check line of sight to see if it gets a cover save. This would be a 2nd los check if you'd already checked it to see if they can shoot. but in the case of the seeker missile, it would be the first check.

So when a defender is trying to determine what save to use, if he wants to use his cover save he checks los to the firing vehicle. I don't see the implication that others are arguing saying that you wouldn't check los. This would be for RAW.

For RAI, the description of how cover works I would think would apply to one of two shots. Either the seeker missile, or the marker light. (icover is either blocking the physical shot, or it is blocking the view of the target). Talking our way out of cover saves for the seeker missile, would be talking our way into cover saves from marker lights in my opinion. So I think I'll stick with RAW, let them take the cover save vs the seeker missile, and hope they faq it later to say it goes up in the air and plops down on their head
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Old 07 Oct 2008, 23:38   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Seeker Cover saves.

Ew, so any indirect fire with seekers confers a cover save? No thanks. If partial obscuring from the firer's pov gives cover, what on earth does full occlusion cause -_-

I'm going to very tactfully never bring this up in any of my games, and if I come across an opponent who requires cover saves vs seekers, I won't run seekers against them unless I'm desperate. Halving the effect of my 10pt, one-shot weapons? No thanks. But I will have to admit that RAW seem to have forgotten to spell out the game effects of indirect fire.

And that's all I'll admit >.>
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Old 08 Oct 2008, 07:37   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Seeker Cover saves.

In one of my more elaborate posts in a previous thread I made the argument that all cover saves imply an obstructed line of sight. Look at the types of weapon in the game that ignore cover saves. Melee attack: no LOS needed, no cover save. Template: no LOS needed, no cover save. Indirect Barrage Weapon: No LOS needed, cover save only within the blast marker, which is basically a LOS test from the center of the marker to the model. Smart Missile System: No LOS needed, no cover save unless you're in the cover. Only with a regular point to point weapon (pulse rifle, bolter, lascannon, etc.) do you get a cover save from the intervening terrain, and only because the LOS you draw is obstructed. With a seeker missile you don't need line of sight, so no cover save unless they're in the cover. The codex says seeker missiles are "assumed to travel in a straight line for purposes of determining which vehicle facing they hit" or something similar. If that's the only reason you consider line of sight, then it won't give you a cover save.
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Old 08 Oct 2008, 08:12   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Seeker Cover saves.

thing is, the book doesn't say what you are saying. It spells it out in black and white that some times it is due to being able to see the target, and some times it is because your bullet hits a tree.

It also states very clearly that in order to determine if you get a cover save, check the line of sight from the shooting model. It says entirely separate from the section of checking los to fire. You thus check los for two different things, and nothing says for the seeker missile that it negates cover.

You are adding a facet to checking los that doesn't exist. You are assuming you can only make an los check to shoot, but that isn't how it works. You shoot, and then they check los to see if they get a cover save. You are implying that because lots of other weapons do what you want seeker missiles to do, that seeker missiles should too. This makes a decent case for RAI, but I am not familiar enough with too many armies weapons to really counter or agree with that.

What I do know, is that RAW doesn't make any provisions for seeker missiles negating cover saves. They should faq this IMO. (but good luck to us with that!)
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