Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

"Sunforge":The Future
Reply
Old 23 Sep 2008, 10:01   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Athens, Hellas
Posts: 62
Default "Sunforge":The Future

After playing about 20-25 5th Ed. games,i've started to reconsider the effectiveness and efficiency of our so-loved Deathrains.Maybe is just me,but MP's aren't that great anymore,yes they are all-around,good vs MC's,Light Vehicles,etc.,but then don't make the"cut" as they used to.
So,i found that Sunforge is by far more reliable(both vs MC's and ALL VEHICLES),and the standard Flamer is huge asset,since the team will operate at short range.And let's face it,a Deathrain team will rarely use their Flamers..
I don't try to say that FB's are superior than MP's but i start to believe that Tau need FB's more than MP's.With the abudance of Cover Saves,a few S7 shots wouldn't make it against a Heavy 'Fex,or a Wraithlord..Same goes for AV12+,given the new VDT(Vehicle Damage Table) and the Cover saves that vehicles can claim.
My latest Mech list runs 2x3-man strong Sunforge Teams 2x Fireknife Commanders,a pair of mounted FW teams(on their Warfishes),a couple of Railheads and a StealthTeam.A few months ago i thought that MP's was the king...But in the end,i think they didn't.
So what do you peolpe think? Did you have also experience the near "sub-par-ness" of MP's on that many given threats i already mention(MC's,High AV)? I'm forward to see your thoughts and opinions ???
__________________
"One shot, one kill..."
Shaso Kellenar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 Sep 2008, 10:43   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 653
Default Re: "Sunforge":The Future

Yeap I certainly find myself taking a lot more Burning Eyes and Helios (well, more suits in general) in 5th due to all the changes, and I do agree that Fireknife and Deathrain spamming is no longer the key.

But I haven't found the real impetus to go into Sunforges partly because of the hit-or-miss nature and the very short range of the shots. I'm more comfortable with the expensive Burning Eye, carrying 1 for every Deathrain team, since Troop transports seem to be everywhere these days.
__________________

Hail to the God-Emperor, Baby!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khathecleric
My love runs her Sisters with melta, so it does get rather hot for my suits when she's around. :P
I just gotta comment that I LOVE all the inuendo in this statement right here... hehe
Quote:
Originally Posted by GyrfalconXV25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchdog
Quote:
Originally Posted by GyrfalconXV25
Is that penetration only for vehicles?
What else would you like to penetrate?
Sisters of battle for starters.....
Khathecleric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 Sep 2008, 11:35   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,958
Default Re: "Sunforge":The Future

Most of the time I stick with my standby configuration of a Centurion commander (plasma, CIB), sometimes with Helios bodyguards (plasma / fusion), and an elite unit of deathrains. If I could reliably get markerlight support onto the deathrain's target I would like to use the Missile Pod / Burst cannon configuration (firestorm), but they usually don't do as well as the deathrain. I don't like the sunforge (twin fusion) because it's just too short-ranged. I know some people use them for suicidal deep-striking tank killers, but that just isn't my style. If you like the fusion, I could see going with Firesurge so you still have the missile pod, but I'll stick with the way I usually run things.

The missile pod might not be the undisputed king, but I still think it's the best overall weapon in the crisis arsenal. Cheaper than a plasma, longer range than anything else, and better firepower than the burst cannon. If there are vehicles or monstrous creatures that are too hard to crack with missile pods, I always have a full team of broadsides. If the target is claiming cover saves, one of my pathfinder squads can take care of that. Granted, that's an awful lot of points to dedicate to that target, but I think it's better than the alternative. Sunforges have to get obscenely close, which won't happen on most tables unless they deepstrike, and I have dismal luck with the deep-strike, even with pathfinder 'fish support. I'd rather lose a single round of fire taking out that big unit than lose a squad of crisis suits, even though it's less points, trying to get into range.
knightperson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 Sep 2008, 11:59   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Athens, Hellas
Posts: 62
Default Re: "Sunforge":The Future

Hello guys,

Well Khathecleric,i'm glad that you also see that Deathrains and Fireknives don't cut it anymore.I had similar thoughts and considerations about the deployment and optimum usage of such a team and i came in 2 conclusions.I,either:

a)Deploy them in mid-flanks and take positions in full proximity with the rest of the army.This works well if a decide to play more defensively(in Capture and Hold maybe),and generally when i see a couple of monstrosities rushing in my DZ, OR

b)Deep Strike them.In certain match-ups (IG,TAU Gunline) it's nearly devastating.Either you'll drop near that Basilisk/Russ and pop it,or if the Scatter disapoint you a lot,you can burn some Guardsmen/Fire Warriors-XV's.

Dear knightperson,

You're right in your points and i have to agree with you but,i've found myself more comfortable with a Sunforge team rather than a full 'Sides team,now and then.Given that a 'Sides tam cost roughly +100 pts in comparison to a Sunforge team.Also,FB's at meltarange are far more reliable to pop Vehicles than Railguns,but that's another story.And at the end,i run a full Mech list so 'Sides aren't in my books 8)

I definetely encourage all our players to try swaping a Deathrain/Fireknife team for a pure and simple Sunforge team and see how it fairs.I think it's very-very handy in almost any situation
__________________
"One shot, one kill..."
Shaso Kellenar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 Sep 2008, 21:15   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 91
Default Re: "Sunforge":The Future

I kinda like the TLFB and MP & HWMT( Shav're or Shas'el) ... Is that a Fire Surge?
Shas0 K0Vash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 Sep 2008, 23:57   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,182
Send a message via AIM to Jedibean
Default Re: "Sunforge":The Future

Y'know what, I can see your point about Missile Pods being less powerful than they were in 4th. Being as how glancing hits in general got nerfed and vehicles get cover saves now. However, I've got to disagree about their lasting usefullness. I didn't start using them until 5th edition and ever since I've taken them in every game and they do a great job of nailing enemy transports and light vehicles. They're also great for taking out Space Marine Scouts, Eldar Elite choices and they can actually deal a whole lot of wounds on regular space marines which can give them a chance to fail saves.

I do like sunforge suits. Usually when I bring them in I deepstrike them near enemy vehicles and try and pop some of their heavier armor. I usually give them target locks so that 1 unit of suits can drop in and take out multiple vehicles. It's a little suicidal but the idea is that I'm trading potentially 3 kill points for 1. Also, they could suck up a decent amount of fire in any case. So all in all this configuration works well against vehicle heavy armies. However, they're not a standard part of my list.
Jedibean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 Sep 2008, 04:49   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,432
Send a message via AIM to MechTau
Default Re: "Sunforge":The Future

Deathrains are damn cheap for being able to deliver a solid hit on the target. When you want someone to take a save, the Deathrain will almost always hit them and wound on a 2+.

It only takes one transport for the Deathrain to "earn back its points". The Sunforge would be lucky to take out 1 or two, the Deathrain can fire all 6 turns due to its long range and JSJ survivability.
__________________
Watch me rebuild my army! - Now with pics of my new scheme!

Open invitation to all: Send me a pm, and I'll be have a look at your army list.
[url=http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=11198.0]Crisis Suit Theory, Army Composition, and why Fireknives suck - You've got to read this classic by T0nka
MechTau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 Sep 2008, 08:22   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Athens, Hellas
Posts: 62
Default Re: "Sunforge":The Future

All that you said guys are fully true,but beside "light vehicle threat management" there is another really nasty category that IMO Tau struglle to compete with: Monstrous Creatures.
After a few games with Eldar Wraithwall,'Nidjila and Daemons i saw that i had a hard time to deal with all these T7 Sv2-3+ MC's.Since i don't field 'Sides as i said,i found myself concetrate all my shooting in one such monstrosity a whole turn and guess what...?? IT SURVIVED!!! I mean,it's silly that the weapon-options we have to deal with such units are almost non-existant!!
If you have experience the sight of 3 WLords+Avatar rushing at the objectives(that are in cover..)y'know what i mean...
__________________
"One shot, one kill..."
Shaso Kellenar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 Sep 2008, 08:40   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,432
Send a message via AIM to MechTau
Default Re: "Sunforge":The Future

I remember when I was worried about Wraithlords. I believe the answer was markerlights guiding in seekers.
__________________
Watch me rebuild my army! - Now with pics of my new scheme!

Open invitation to all: Send me a pm, and I'll be have a look at your army list.
[url=http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=11198.0]Crisis Suit Theory, Army Composition, and why Fireknives suck - You've got to read this classic by T0nka
MechTau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 Sep 2008, 09:03   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: yelm wa. USA
Posts: 760
Default Re: "Sunforge":The Future

Sorry i can't agree that fireknifes are done by any means. with the new rules for CC the ability to JSJ and stay out of range for return fire or assaults has saved me many times in 5th. the thing with MCs and tanks now, it's realy hard for them to find cover since they require terrain that blocks 50% or more of thier body/hull.

Of course i run a mixed mechanised force so suits alone are not the backbone of the list(there are only 5 at 2K). but rather a composite of the force. when i combine all the parts of the whole they perform well.




__________________
there is no such thing as overkill, just victory or defeat.
mughi3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Which deploys last? "Word in Your Ear", "Grand Illusion", or "Macharian Cross" davidgr33n The Inquisition 4 27 Dec 2007 05:52
Which deploys last? "Word in Your Ear", "Grand Illusion", or "Macharian Cross" davidgr33n Imperial Guard 5 24 Dec 2007 20:38
NWR: "Spirit of the Wanderer: Silent Future." Praying Mantidae Fluff/Stories 10 03 Jul 2007 14:19
"scratch" built Leman Russ in the style of German "Mouse" tank (pictures) saffo Conversion 22 19 May 2006 16:22
the tau "empire" (future veiw) ahstbn Tau 34 26 Aug 2005 04:43