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Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?
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Old 21 Sep 2008, 07:34   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?

I know Seeker Missiles and SMS grant cover saves from area terrain, but what about interveining models and buildings?

Since you don't need line of sight, would obscurement really affect them?
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Old 21 Sep 2008, 08:18   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?

intervening models provide cover in the same sense as being a piece of terrain sadly. Perhaps the smart missiles collides into the ground and shrapnel hits you, perhaps it just hits the ground. Perhaps the AI goes crazy mid air. But maybe this is a case where thats only smart missiles.

Now seeker missiles hehe, are guided by a beacon, this should not be confused with any other model, its dead set on finding the fly on the chest of the captain.

Mind you, this being the open ground. Had he been hiding in a building then yes he gets cover. Wonder if the faq has something on that, I cant open a pdf to save my life atm.
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Old 21 Sep 2008, 10:53   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?

I've been wondering this myself, actually. It seems to be yet another thing that needs to be FAQ'd, but until it is, I'll give you the arguments and interpretations that make the most sense to me. When cover saves are mentioned, the line of sight is assumed. That phrase isn't used, but when you draw a line from one model to another, that is a sight line. A broken line of sight means a cover save or an impossible shot. Since smart and seeker missiles don't require line of sight, they don't care about anything that would block it. They also wouldn't care about intervening models because that's another form of blocked line of sight. So no cover save unless you're actually standing in the cover.

This is more clear for smart missiles than for seekers because the description of SMS states that they go around any terrain that's in the way. All it says about seekers is that you don't need LOS from the vehicle. I suppose it could have been put in there because requiring LOS from the vehicle would require that you have LOS from three different units to your target: the model that fired the markerlight, the model that used the counter, and the vehicle it's mounted on. That would be unwieldy in the extreme.
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Old 21 Sep 2008, 16:33   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?

In the codex it specifically states that's smart missiles ignore cover unless they are in or touching the intervening cover. So if someone is standing behind a transport they don't get a cover save. However if they are standing in a building then they get a cover save. On the other hand it specifically states in the codex that seeker missiles travel in a straight line from the vehicle to the target and makes no mention of ignoring terrain. Therefore it treats terrain just like any other weapon granting cover saves where apprpriate. All of this is covered in the codex.
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Old 21 Sep 2008, 21:24   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?

I'm gonna have to argue against the Seeker Missile, because it specifically states something in that same sentence. It is assumed to move in a straight line to the target for the purpose of deciding whether it strikes the front, side, or rear armor. That's the only time you need to check as far as lining it up goes.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 00:35   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild
I'm gonna have to argue against the Seeker Missile, because it specifically states something in that same sentence. It is assumed to move in a straight line to the target for the purpose of deciding whether it strikes the front, side, or rear armor. That's the only time you need to check as far as lining it up goes.
Yeah, obviously you have to figure out which armor facing the weapon strikes. That's the same as any weapon. They just wanted to make sure that people are aware that the missile comes from the direction of the vehicle where the missile comes from. Which of course makes senes. However, unlike in the Smart Missile System entry it says nothing about any special considerations towards cover. If it has no special considerations towards cover then it treats cover just like anything else. As much as you may want seeker missiles to ignore cover it doesn't specifically say that they do. Therefore they dont. Sorry.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 03:34   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild
I'm gonna have to argue against the Seeker Missile, because it specifically states something in that same sentence. It is assumed to move in a straight line to the target for the purpose of deciding whether it strikes the front, side, or rear armor. That's the only time you need to check as far as lining it up goes.
Yeah, obviously you have to figure out which armor facing the weapon strikes. That's the same as any weapon. They just wanted to make sure that people are aware that the missile comes from the direction of the vehicle where the missile comes from. Which of course makes senes. However, unlike in the Smart Missile System entry it says nothing about any special considerations towards cover. If it has no special considerations towards cover then it treats cover just like anything else. As much as you may want seeker missiles to ignore cover it doesn't specifically say that they do. Therefore they dont. Sorry.
But they do not require line of sight. Intervening cover grants you a save because it breaks line of sight. No line of sight to break, no cover save. A model only gets a cover save from either one if it's standing in the cover.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 04:00   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightperson
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild
I'm gonna have to argue against the Seeker Missile, because it specifically states something in that same sentence. It is assumed to move in a straight line to the target for the purpose of deciding whether it strikes the front, side, or rear armor. That's the only time you need to check as far as lining it up goes.
Yeah, obviously you have to figure out which armor facing the weapon strikes. That's the same as any weapon. They just wanted to make sure that people are aware that the missile comes from the direction of the vehicle where the missile comes from. Which of course makes senes. However, unlike in the Smart Missile System entry it says nothing about any special considerations towards cover. If it has no special considerations towards cover then it treats cover just like anything else. As much as you may want seeker missiles to ignore cover it doesn't specifically say that they do. Therefore they dont. Sorry.
But they do not require line of sight. Intervening cover grants you a save because it breaks line of sight. No line of sight to break, no cover save. A model only gets a cover save from either one if it's standing in the cover.
I'm going to go ahead and continue to disagree with you here. The SMS ignores cover that you're not in or touching because the weapons entry specifically says so. The Seeker Missile does not. If they intended it to ingore intervening cover then they would have said so in the weapons entry rather than leave us to discuss the vagaries of the line of sight rules.

My argument here is that there are general rules for how cover and line of sight effects every weapon in the game. For weapons that are affected differently than the standard direct shot weapons then it states it either in the rule book or in the weapons entry.

For instance, Barrage weapons only grant a cover save if the center of the blast passes through intervening cover or if the unit is in cover as described in the rule book. Under the entry for Flame Templates it specifically says that they ignore cover. In the Eldar Codex the Vibro-Cannon completely ignores cover because it specifically states that it behaves as such. In the seeker missile entry it doesn't say anything about how it interacts with terrain. At this point we have to default to the rule book and assume that it interacts with Terrain just like any other weapon direct shot weapon.

That's just what's in the codex. If it was meant to interact with cover any differently than any other weapon they would say so the way they do in so many other cases in the rulebook and the codex.

It says that the weapon travels in a straight line and hits the armor facing that it's facing the vehicle. Nothing says that it ignores cover along the way. Just because the firing vehicle doesn't need line of sight and travels in a straight line doesn't mean it ignores all the cover along the way.

I understand your opinion and why you think it should ignore intervening cover. You'd think it'd be smarter than a smart missile. However, nothing in the rules specifically say that it has this effect. So therefore it doesn't. There have been problems interpretting the rules, but in this case the rules as written aren't on your side.

By the way, line of sight and cover go hand in hand but they aren't the same thing. Just because you ignore line of sight doesn't mean you ignore cover. Conversely just because a weapon ignores cover doesn't mean you ignore line of sight. A crisis suit sporting twin linked flamers wont be able to shoot someone around a the corner of a solid wall because he doesn't know he's there. On the other hand Just because you ignore line of sight doesn't neccessarily mean you ignore cover... unless the rules specifically say so.

Sorry to get long winded and I hope you dont think I'm being an ass... but I just wanna feel like I got my point across.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 05:27   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?

Quote:
By the way, line of sight and cover go hand in hand but they aren't the same thing. Just because you ignore line of sight doesn't mean you ignore cover. Conversely just because a weapon ignores cover doesn't mean you ignore line of sight. A crisis suit sporting twin linked flamers wont be able to shoot someone around a the corner of a solid wall because he doesn't know he's there. On the other hand Just because you ignore line of sight doesn't necessarily mean you ignore cover... unless the rules specifically say so.

Sorry to get long winded and I hope you don't think I'm being an D'yi... but I just wanna feel like I got my point across.
Can you provide any examples where line of sight and cover are separate? As far as I know, all weapons that draw line of sight allow cover saves if that line of sight crosses cover, and all weapons that don't draw line of sight don't. Melee weapons: no line of sight required, no cover. Flamers, no line of sight required, no cover. Barrage / Guess weapons, no line of sight required, no cover (from intervening terrain that the line of sight would cross, anyway). Smart missiles: no line of sight, no cover from intervening terrain. Since seeker missiles do not need line of sight, the pattern certainly suggests that you don't get cover from intervening terrain.

We both have valid arguments, and I don't feel either of us have been rude at all. If it's not too hypocritical, I salute your rational argument while trying to destroy it at the same time!
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 07:00   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Seeker Missiles/ SMS cover saves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightperson
Quote:
By the way, line of sight and cover go hand in hand but they aren't the same thing. Just because you ignore line of sight doesn't mean you ignore cover. Conversely just because a weapon ignores cover doesn't mean you ignore line of sight. A crisis suit sporting twin linked flamers wont be able to shoot someone around a the corner of a solid wall because he doesn't know he's there. On the other hand Just because you ignore line of sight doesn't necessarily mean you ignore cover... unless the rules specifically say so.

Sorry to get long winded and I hope you don't think I'm being an D'yi... but I just wanna feel like I got my point across.
Can you provide any examples where line of sight and cover are separate? As far as I know, all weapons that draw line of sight allow cover saves if that line of sight crosses cover, and all weapons that don't draw line of sight don't. Melee weapons: no line of sight required, no cover. Flamers, no line of sight required, no cover. Barrage / Guess weapons, no line of sight required, no cover (from intervening terrain that the line of sight would cross, anyway). Smart missiles: no line of sight, no cover from intervening terrain. Since seeker missiles do not need line of sight, the pattern certainly suggests that you don't get cover from intervening terrain.

We both have valid arguments, and I don't feel either of us have been rude at all. If it's not too hypocritical, I salute your rational argument while trying to destroy it at the same time!
And I in return appreciate your persistence. However, in attempting to lend credence to your own argument I think you've only gone further into disproving it.

1) For melee weapons the rule book specifically states that you never get a cover save in close combat.

2) No where in the flamer Entry does it say that it ignores line of sight. It says that it ignores cover but it does not ignore line of sight. You very well cant flame the target if you dont know it's there.

3) Barrage weapons are the weapons that I specifically described earlier. It doesn't need line of sight and it gives the specific instances where it does and does not grant cover saves.

4) Again Smart Missile Systems give an exact description of how they specifically are effected by terrain and therefore cover.

The seeker missile entry makes no specific mention of any special rules regarding cover and therefore it has none. It goes in a straightline and if something is in the way of that straight line then it gets a cover save.

I'm not doing this just to pee on your parade. I play Tau and I'd like to see this FAQ'ed in our favor. It might make seekers worthwhile. However, as it stands you can try and use interpretation to your advantage but the fact is that it always comes back to rules as written. RAW says that there is no special consideration for seeker missiles and cover, just line of sight. That's pretty much it.
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