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Heavy armor heavy army
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Old 14 Sep 2008, 21:07   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Heavy armor heavy army

I'm quite fond of the hammerheads (mostly because of the pie plate), but a friend told me that heavy armor heavy armies are quite vulnerable in the ways that it only requires a few well placed shots from say a shooty IG army with a few hidden lascannons to take down lots of points. Now, in my case, I run 1 railhead and 1 ionhead without any broadsides in a 1k army, and was wondering how much I should listen to my friend and replace the railhead with 2 broadsides. I mean, the hammerheads are very hard to hide, expensive for the railgun and less accurate than the broadsides. On the other hand they are mobile, got the pie plate and (according to some) pretty much the best tank in the game considering what you get for what it costs (best anti-tank weapon, 12" speed and 4+ cover save weighing in at less than 200).

So, I need to straighten this out. How much truth is there in the above? Which is the overall more reliable between broadsides and railheads? What traps is there with having half the points in vehicles (for tau that is, and my list includes a df)?
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Old 14 Sep 2008, 22:40   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Heavy armor heavy army

Well, I must first say that if you are running some tanks, run a whole lotta tanks. They can't hit them all. A devilfish, some pirranahs, and your Hammerheads way back popping away at armor safely while your enemy (pardon the pun) has other fish to fry. It only takes two turns to establish tactical dominance.
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Old 14 Sep 2008, 23:05   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Heavy armor heavy army

I don't know if we have the best per say, I tend to think not. Especially with the changes in Fifth. If anything we overpay for the capabilities at hand. Minor nerfs to our equipment and skimmer rules have set us back a small amount. The nerf to vehicles overall meant everyone but Necrons (and to a lesser degree Eldar) needed some points shaved off.

The always hit the rear is a crap rule as well. I could accept side armor if they wanted some realism in their game for once, for game balance though they went to far the opposite.

So yeah, I rely more on Broadsides than I used to. Cover save system was crap if my recent running of 'Ard Boys in my area proved anything to my players (well the stores&#39.


The good thing is I'm introducing more people to GW's other games, back when they were made with the well-being of the customer in mind. That and about five or six more people added to the group of 4th edition players. We have about 16-18 of them now. After 'Ard Boys, only the die hard 5th editioners wanted to continue it.
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Old 14 Sep 2008, 23:46   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heavy armor heavy army

Yep I gotta agree with mech tau if your gonna run tanks run alot. I take 4 devil fish + fire warriors two hammerheads and two piranahs in 1500 points. You can't kill um all!
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Old 14 Sep 2008, 23:57   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Heavy armor heavy army

Honestly it's a coin toss. It depends on what you're really looking to do and what you think you may be going up against. I find that your friend is actually correct to an extent. The hammerhead and broadsides are similar in a lot of ways but designed for very different uses.

The hammerhead is MUCH more flexible than broadsides. It has a fairly accurate railgun and a fairly accurate submunition that lands a large blast template that wounds most infantry units on 2. I say fairly accurate because I have a habit of missing more often than not with my railgun. But when it does hit something usually goes boom. It also sports a nice pair of smart missiles that can hit anything in a 24" radius. It's a great anti-personell weapon and it's one of the best weapons in the game in my opinion. The submunition is really great because odds are it's not going to scatter much. When it hits it's going to cause a lot of wounds on tightly packed units and make your opponent take a lot of armor saves... that is if they get saves at all.

I think you can tell I'm a fan of the hammerhead but dont get me wrong, if you NEED to take out tanks then broadsides are the end all be all. Twin-linked rail guns are about as good as it gets for destroying armor from the safety of your own gun line. They can also take advantage of a 2+ armor save. So they're a lot less vulnerable to rocket launchers than hammerheads are. But they're also more vulnerable to lascannons. Make sure that you take shield drones with your broadsides to keep them alive as cover saves really dont cut it. The smart missile systems are ok on the broadside. The thing is that the broadside generally wont be in a situation where it's usefull to fire both at the same time because both weapons are only usefull for a specific type of target. So hammerheads are a little more versatile in that respect because they can fire both weapons at different targets. However, the broadside is a better tank killer.

Both of them have their weaknesses though. They're both vulnerable to Outflanking Assault units. So watch out for that. I have a habit of keeping my broadsides and hammerheads toward the middle of the board. It's the easiest way to get away from them. If they come at you anyway then you've got at least 1 turn to react and try and intercept them. Also, expect a lot of shooting to go their way. So make sure you're prepared for it. With the hammerhead I like to maneuver out of their firing arcs. With broadsides I like to make sure that I set up outside of their firing arcs or take enough shield drones to suck up any high strength low AP shooting.

I hope my opinions have been helpfull. I do quite well using vehicles this way. My opinion is that if you've gotten comfortable with a specific play style then there's no reason to change. Especially if it's working for you.
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Old 15 Sep 2008, 02:50   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Heavy armor heavy army

I wish we had more options for armor then just heavy support. Devilfish and piranhas just don't cut it. Devilfish don't have the firepower and piranhas have neither the firepower nor the armor to be intimidating to the enemy.

I mean, look at space marines/CSM/Eldar/DH's....basically everyone else who field any kind of armor. They can all bring a crapload of very nasty, hard hitting and hard to destroy vehicles and all we can do is pray we brought enough railguns and fusion blasters in our take-all-comers list to deal with it. We need some kind of answer to the land raider, razorback, dreadnought, the wave serpent (Eldar can bring as many tanks as they bring troop and elite choices combined thanks to these nasty SOBs while they're driving their nasty little infantry squads across the board and then still have room for 3 fire prisms or 3 wraithlords), the hellhound, and every other non-heavy armor choice.
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Old 15 Sep 2008, 03:01   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Heavy armor heavy army

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
I wish we had more options for armor then just heavy support. Devilfish and piranhas just don't cut it. Devilfish don't have the firepower and piranhas have neither the firepower nor the armor to be intimidating to the enemy.

I mean, look at space marines/CSM/Eldar/DH's....basically everyone else who field any kind of armor. They can all bring a crapload of very nasty, hard hitting and hard to destroy vehicles and all we can do is pray we brought enough railguns and fusion blasters in our take-all-comers list to deal with it. We need some kind of answer to the land raider, razorback, dreadnought, the wave serpent (Eldar can bring as many tanks as they bring troop and elite choices combined thanks to these nasty SOBs while they're driving their nasty little infantry squads across the board and then still have room for 3 fire prisms or 3 wraithlords), the hellhound, and every other non-heavy armor choice.
We have plenty of options for Vehicles. Imperials and SM's have the most...but the others don't have noticibly different amounts than the Tau. Eldar have 5 I think, DE less than that, Orks have 5-6 but their sub-standard usually, CSM's have 5, Necrons have one, and Tyranids don't have any. We have an okay amount really. (I might be wrong for actual numbers in these above estimates, I'm going off the top of my head).
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Old 15 Sep 2008, 03:29   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Heavy armor heavy army

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slave to the Bell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
I wish we had more options for armor then just heavy support. Devilfish and piranhas just don't cut it. Devilfish don't have the firepower and piranhas have neither the firepower nor the armor to be intimidating to the enemy.

I mean, look at space marines/CSM/Eldar/DH's....basically everyone else who field any kind of armor. They can all bring a crapload of very nasty, hard hitting and hard to destroy vehicles and all we can do is pray we brought enough railguns and fusion blasters in our take-all-comers list to deal with it. We need some kind of answer to the land raider, razorback, dreadnought, the wave serpent (Eldar can bring as many tanks as they bring troop and elite choices combined thanks to these nasty SOBs while they're driving their nasty little infantry squads across the board and then still have room for 3 fire prisms or 3 wraithlords), the hellhound, and every other non-heavy armor choice.
We have plenty of options for Vehicles. Imperials and SM's have the most...but the others don't have noticibly different amounts than the Tau. Eldar have 5 I think, DE less than that, Orks have 5-6 but their sub-standard usually, CSM's have 5, Necrons have one, and Tyranids don't have any. We have an okay amount really. (I might be wrong for actual numbers in these above estimates, I'm going off the top of my head).
That's not what I meant, even though we really don't have much in the way of choices (4, total). Devilfish don't really count as armor. They're just like rhinos, nobody should bother shooting at them if there isn't anything in them. Piranhas can be taken care of by virtually anything thanks to their all around 10 AV, so that leaves us with Sky Rays and Hammerheads, of which we can bring a maximum of 3. Space Marines/CSM can bring literally as many Land Raiders as they have the points for, in addition to their heavy support choices and dreadnoughts--and venerable dreadnoughts for HQ choices. Eldar can bring as many wave serpents as they have troop/elite choices as well, in addition to heavy support choices.

I just wish we had some options for dedicated transport/non-heavy support beyond devilfish. Make it cost more, sure, but give it some teeth.
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Old 15 Sep 2008, 03:48   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Heavy armor heavy army

I do wish the Piranha weren't open top's...

I'd love the options for a nose burst cannon and two independently firing plasma rifles.

'Course, I'd like our shooting to be how it was in Fourth as well. Our devilfish actually were decent back in the day (all those few months ago ).

I'm sure if we luck into a Fifth edition powerplay codex we'll get the loving we deserve. I don't think we will though, to be honest.
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Old 15 Sep 2008, 03:58   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Heavy armor heavy army

I believe the Necrons have two one of which is a Forge World machine how ever. It looks kinda like a square dinner plate...I cannot remember the name of the thing off the top of my head though...
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