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Artillery and Stealth Suits
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Old 21 Aug 2008, 15:18   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Artillery and Stealth Suits

Settle an argument for me.

Do you have to take a spotting check to fire artillery at Stealth Suits?

Andrew
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Old 21 Aug 2008, 15:22   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Arillery and Stealth Suits

By Artillery do you mean Barrage weapon or not.

If it's a barrage weapon I would say no since you do not require line of sight, However if line of sight is required for Artillery, then yes a spot check is required after the artillery declare it's aiming at the stealth suit.

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Old 21 Aug 2008, 15:30   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Arillery and Stealth Suits

Yes I mean barrage.

Edit. The last bit was a bit off base...

Okay, now I have the rules infront of me, the Stealth part only says models attempting to fire, it make no exceptions on weapons not requiring LoS. So by my read barrage weapons must still roll to spot, and they also increase scatter distance by 1d6.

I'm looking for a devils advocate here.

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Old 21 Aug 2008, 18:16   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Arillery and Stealth Suits

Wish I could help you, Andrew, but rereading the rules actually has me agreeing with you - I thought they specifically called out barrage weapons as not having to make the check.

The only argument one could make would be from the ever-ambiguous "check spotting distance as if firing at night", which could either mean:

A) For any enemy unit firing at you (no exceptions), roll 2d6 and multiply by 3, checking distance as described in night-fighting rules,

or

B) As per night-fighting rules, barrage weapons do not have to roll, but roll an extra d6 for their scatter dice.

Except the night-fighting rules are similarly vague, in that it never actually specifies that barrage and ordinance weapons do NOT have to make the 2d6 x3 roll.


Personally, I find A the more likely answer - with these sorts of rules, exceptions have to be more than sorta-implied-but-never-really-stated, they should be explicit - though there are special rules for barrage-type weapons firing at night or at stealth, those special rules don't mention an immunity to the general ones.

This makes stealth so much better in my mind... thanks, Andrew!
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Old 21 Aug 2008, 18:25   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Arillery and Stealth Suits

Well, wouldn't this make sense?

Why would an Artillery crew fire at an open space where a Stealth team is located unless they had an idea that the Stealth team was there?

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Old 21 Aug 2008, 18:53   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Arillery and Stealth Suits

Because their comissar saw a glint, panicked and screamed down the vox caster for all rounds to flatten that hill? :P

It makes sense in that, "I think there something there, but I'm not sure, so I'll just bomb the entire area!"
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Old 21 Aug 2008, 19:07   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Artillery and Stealth Suits

I would say they still need to pass the spotting check. If they pass, they use their BS as normal as a reduction on the scatter. But as in the Stealth Field Generator rules, you roll an extra D6 for the scatter. So the shot would scatter 3d6-BS.

If you fail the test, then you can't see them. So you could still fire, but the shot would scatter a straight 3d6. That is the most unkind interpretation.

On the other hand, the FAQed Harlequin rules already set a bit of a precedent here. They do have to be spotted, even by Barrage weapons. It may just be a case of GW favoring the clowns, since the same line does not appear in the Tau FAQ, so you will have to talk it over with your opponents before the game.

I would say that RAW means the Stealthsuits have to be spotted, even against Barrage weapons.
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Old 23 Aug 2008, 05:19   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Artillery and Stealth Suits

Gotta follow rules as written on this one. It says that all enemy units attempting to fire at them MUST pass a night fight check basically. Then in addition to this you MUST add an additional D6 to their scatter. This pretty much makes barrage weapons useless against stealth suits. Way to spot this added advantage. Thanks.
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Old 23 Aug 2008, 05:29   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Artillery and Stealth Suits

Put simply, the weapon not need LoS does need range. And since it is basically an 'Availible Range Check' the weapon still need to be able to 'see' them. Even if LoS is blocked the the weapon still needs to make the check to shoot at them.
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Old 23 Aug 2008, 08:24   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Artillery and Stealth Suits

Had this same discussion about the "viel of tears" and barrage or no LOS weapons in 4th.

Here is the thing.

Rule for stealth etc..-
"must roll to spot (to see them)to fire on them"

Rule for indirect, barrage/no LOS weapons like SMS
"exempt from needing to see thier target to fire on them"

Then add in that the actual rules for making a spot check in 4th REQUIRED the shooting unit to have LOS to the target. which indirect fire weapons do not have and are exempt from. so you were are in fact breaking a rule by making them spot.

Now it comes down to weather or not your adhereing to the dictionary definition of "spotting" and "seeing" which are variation of the same thing. spotting is quite literlly looking very intently to see your target.

As such our group treats barrage weapons as needing no spot check but they scatter 3d6 when firing at stealthy units(there is no modifier for BS with indirect fire). and SMS well they have an onboard AI seeker so your straight out of luck hiding from them.

Now here is areal funny thing. the 5th ed rulebook has no rules for spot checks but with reguards to barrage weapons--


p.32
"barrage weapons may fire at targets they cannot see"

So it again is still a rules conflict. if i role to spot your stealth suits (which it appears you do not need to do) and i fail....RAW says i can shoot you anyway in the 5th ed BRB since they are now targets i cannot see(well they were already anyway, hence a barrage attack).

GW really should have included it(targeting stealth units) in the rules section for barrage weapons. :P



It should be noted however after a review of the eldar FAQ that the harlies get a special rule outside the normal barrage rules that allow them to force a spot check. how you wish to resolve the shooting is up to your groups as per the normal rules the downside of firing barrage is that you don't adjust for BS because you cannot see the target. rather you want to keep that or include it since your being forced to make a spot check is up to you. by RAW you still would not get an adjustment.

As stealth suits are not privy to the harlies special rule, as it does not pertain to general stealthed units but rather a specific eldar power. the rule on p.32 of the BRB would come into play.

So i would rule-yes you can fire at stealth suits without making a spot check.




Quote:
Put simply, the weapon not need LoS does need range. And since it is basically an 'Availible Range Check' the weapon still need to be able to 'see' them. Even if LoS is blocked the the weapon still needs to make the check to shoot at them.
Interesting perspective but not supported by RAW. you already know what your weapons systems range capability is, your rolling to see the target.
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