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Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 05:30   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)

Yeah, seriously I talk about this so much with my local gaming group that I forget who I have and haven't said it to. So mods, stop me if I've already said this but....

Crisis suits should be toughness 5 for a number of reasons. A lot of people have already complained that crisis suits are...

1) Too vulnerable to the plethora of weapons that cause instant death.

2) Handicapped somewhat due to the new true line of sight rules.

Maybe a lot of people aren't saying it but I sure as heck am!

It's too easy these days to hit a crisis suit with a weapon that will cause it to go bye-bye with nothing we can do about it. Whether it's lascannons, Battle-Cannon Blast templates (that wipe out whole squads of suits in 1 shot), Missile Launchers, or meltaguns these weapons kill our expensive suits outright with no save whatsoever and I think it's a little unfair.

I think all of this would be resolved if they just made the battlesuits toughness 5. I think it's fine that there are plenty of options that people have to deny suits their save, but why so much instant death? Is it really warranted anymore now that they can easily be spotted at most ranges in 5th edition? In 4th edition it was warranted because of the way they could hide behind area terrain. But now with the sheer volume of fire that they have to endure they're really not survivable enough to take it even with shield generators and especially since they nerfed drone protection.

Of course toughness 5 would make A LOT of other weapons weaker against them and frankly GOOD! The things are TWICE the size of space marine! They should get better protection. They also cost more than terminators and aren't as survivable.

I think they should increase the toughness of broadsides and XV8's to 5 and increase the ballistic skill of the XV8 pilots to 4 and increase the points of all XV8's by 5 points.

What do you guys think? I'm sure that more than one of you are going to disagree so dont be shy.
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 05:46   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)

Ok well then I want strength 10 Lascannons, and 2 wound marines and... yea you get the idea. Crisis suits have to have a weakness. For their cost they have a decent statline, good armor, multiple wounds and kick arse weaponry. So yea they're vulnerable to instant death, well so are a lot of people. My 200+ point Space Marine commander can be insta killed. If your crisis suits are taking a lot of krak missile fire well thats not because the unit needs to be tougher, its simply a case of either you need to use them better or your opponent is good at killing them.
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 06:01   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash113
If your crisis suits are taking a lot of krak missile fire well thats not because the unit needs to be tougher, its simply a case of either you need to use them better or your opponent is good at killing them.
This is exactly what I'm getting at though. In 5th edition crisis suits are taking A LOT more fire than they used to in 4th edition because of the change to true line of sight. If you've got 3 space marine devestator squads perched in 3 different positions that each have a decent line of sight on the board and all of them are armed with lascannons and krak missiles ( a pretty common sight in my GW) then where's the room to get away from that?

The "use them better" argument is a pretty tough argument to make.

By the way, I'm going to go ahead and assume that with your 200+ point space marine commander you were smart enough to take an Adamantine Mantle. Isn't that the upgrade that space marine commanders can take so that they're immune to instant death? Not even the Tau Command suits have an ability to rival that. And you can hide your commander in a squad of marines without losing any benefit of the commander himself. If I hide my commander in a unit of fire warriors he becomes MUCH less effective because he loses half of his mobility. If I hide him in a unit of crisis suits I can lose 1 suit then I run the risk of my commander running off the table, which is another factor that you're not taking into account. So you really cant compare your space marine commander to my crisis suits or crisis suit commander. They're not at all similar and if you give him the right wargear then it's not a problem for you.
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 06:04   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)

The guys I play against are always saying that crisis suits are a damn good buy and if anything have too many wounds I disagree I think they are a good deal. We can get a save with a shield generator ok if we fail instant death is anoying but hey thats a price I'm willing to pay also I suggest getting the lascannon before it gets you :P
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 06:09   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tark
The guys I play against are always saying that crisis suits are a damn good buy and if anything have too many wounds I disagree I think they are a good deal. We can get a save with a shield generator ok if we fail instant death is anoying but hey thats a price I'm willing to pay also I suggest getting the lascannon before it gets you :P
A very good suggestion, but really... with what? I run into this all the time, 3 devestator squads in buildings or forests and bristling with lascannons. Do you know how tough it is to take out anywhere from 15 to 30 marines that are in 4+ cover? It's EXTREMELY difficult.

Lascannons are no problem when we're talking about Guard heavy weapons emplacements or pretty much any vehicle. But there are times when they're pretty much unavoidable death. It's like 4 shots, hit on 3's wound on 2's instant death and you get a 4+ save against it at best for your squad of 50 - 75 point models. seems a little messed up to me.

Maybe the problem isn't the crisis suits, maybe the problem is the cheesers who are like, "Oh you're playing Tau? Lemme go get my dev squads that are nothing but 4 lascannons and a sergeant...."

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Old 31 Jul 2008, 06:19   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)

The bean has got a point.

It's the price we pay because we MUST pay it, but it doesn't make it right. Too many points invested in suits can be insta-killed with little "give" as to how we can adjust. We can pay 20pts and get a 50-50 CHANCE to survive and waste 1 in 3 slots in the process. We can add shield drones and lose the IC bonus. We can risk it and die while we still have 3 regular wounds on our suit.

JSJ formerly made this an acceptable risk and gave Tau a cost-effective heavy weapons alternative, which other armies happen to be rolling in.

Against my better instincts, the only way to effectively use suits it seems is to either keep the distance near acceptable terrain and fire off missile pods or deep strike right up on 'em with cheap flamers and fusion blasters. An aggressive decision which limits the flexiblity of these wonderful suits.

Honestly, jedibean has struck a nerve. It's bad enough that JSJ with suits has gotten hit to a point where you have to take a break in army modelling in order to build terrain that can maybe facilitate Tau tactics; but if the suits are gonna be exposed this heavily, then at least give us the toughness boost. Good call.
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 06:26   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)


Maybe the problem isn't the crisis suits, maybe the problem is the cheesers who are like, "Oh you're playing Tau? Lemme go get my dev squads that are nothing but 4 lascannons and a sergeant...."
[/quote]

Bingo I play against friends only as I don't have a gamesworkshop nearby and the local supplier is a total *insert expletive here* and my friends and I refuse to spend money or attend games days held by his shop. I think you do have a point but like vash said you have to have a weakness if they were increased to toughness 5 I'm sure we would have to pay for it big time. At the moment I like them at the cost they are you can kit them out well in a 500 point army and still have plenty of points for a few units to really stick it to your opponents.
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 06:34   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
This is exactly what I'm getting at though. In 5th edition crisis suits are taking A LOT more fire than they used to in 4th edition because of the change to true line of sight. If you've got 3 space marine devestator squads perched in 3 different positions that each have a decent line of sight on the board and all of them are armed with lascannons and krak missiles ( a pretty common sight in my GW) then where's the room to get away from that?

The "use them better" argument is a pretty tough argument to make.
Its a remarkably easy argument to make, "use them better," there I said it again . No really its true, no joke now, ok he's got lots of Devs... so what? Lascannon Devs are horrendously expencive and if he has 3 squads of them thats a feck load of points in static positions, so use that against him. If he's targeting your crisis suits with those use that as bait keep his attention on the suits while you have other units move up to open fire on the Devs. Heck you can even tie up Dev squads easy by sending a couple vehicle drone squadrons into them in assault. They can't kill a couple squadrons of drones in just one turn so you can keep them locked for up to two turns or more that way.

If your opponent is so dedicated into taking out Crisis Suits then use that against him, don't complain that your suits aren't tough enough, its not going to happen.

Quote:
By the way, I'm going to go ahead and assume that with your 200+ point space marine commander you were smart enough to take an Adamantine Mantle. Isn't that the upgrade that space marine commanders can take so that they're immune to instant death? Not even the Tau Command suits have an ability to rival that. And you can hide your commander in a squad of marines without losing any benefit of the commander himself. If I hide my commander in a unit of fire warriors he becomes MUCH less effective because he loses half of his mobility. If I hide him in a unit of crisis suits I can lose 1 suit then I run the risk of my commander running off the table, which is another factor that you're not taking into account. So you really cant compare your space marine commander to my crisis suits or crisis suit commander. They're not at all similar and if you give him the right wargear then it's not a problem for you.
Um... you'd be wrong in that assumption. Space Marines can take an Adamantine Mantle OR an Iron Halo and I always take the Iron Halo. I'd much rather have an Invulnerable save and hopefully avoid a wound entirely. But Space Marines can take only ONE relic in any given army, thats one 4+ save in the whole army. Tau can take Shield Generators on what, Crisis Teams, Broadside Teams, Command Suits, Bodyguards and can give Shield Drones to Firewarrior Squads, Pathfinders, Stealth Teams. Tau can give practically the entire army access to a 4+ invulnerable save and you have no idea how HUGE an advantage that is. Most armies can't even come close to that.

Your commander is also an IC you don't need to hide him either he just has to not be the clossest target and I was never comparing I was merely explaining that others have that problem but no Space Marines can't just take the right wargear to ignore that problem entirely, one model can... well thats nice, what about my other expencive characters and officers.... nope.

Really there's no reason to complain and no justification for making suits tougher. Crisis Suits on a whole are fantastic weapons platforms and for their price its a bloody steal that often has a lot of people calling cheese even, they have to be balanced by some weakness, if they were utterly imprevious than it would hardly be fair would it?

Now seriously you'd be better off asking for advice on how to deal with those pesky lascannons and missile launchers and see what advice others have to give you. For instance:

Quote:
A very good suggestion, but really... with what? I run into this all the time, 3 devestator squads in buildings or forests and bristling with lascannons. Do you know how tough it is to take out anywhere from 15 to 30 marines that are in 4+ cover? It's EXTREMELY difficult.

Lascannons are no problem when we're talking about Guard heavy weapons emplacements or pretty much any vehicle. But there are times when they're pretty much unavoidable death. It's like 4 shots, hit on 3's wound on 2's instant death and you get a 4+ save against it at best for your squad of 50 - 75 point models. seems a little messed up to me.

Maybe the problem isn't the crisis suits, maybe the problem is the cheesers who are like, "Oh you're playing Tau? Lemme go get my dev squads that are nothing but 4 lascannons and a sergeant...."
Ok so... they do that then what? Play objective games and see what happens, a Marine player does that all game and he accomplishes really nothing while you sieze the objective and win the game whether you lose the crisis suits or not. Or if your opponents are so unsportsmanlike as to tailor such lists to fight you and only you, then don't play them it is after all rather unsportsmanlike.

Or you want to mess that up? Take 3 squadrons of Piranhas of 1 unit each. Run them up the flanks, disembark the Drones and charge the Drones into the Devs, lock them up for a Turn, mount a bunch of Firewarriors into Devilfish, advance on the firebase while its locked, deploy where you have range and send the Devilfish drones into the Devastators. When the Devs are finally done dealing with the Drones you can have a significant firebase of guns ready to unload into the Devs and simply blast away. Personally I like planting submunition plates onto Dev squads to inflict some nice high strength wounds and hurt them for taking such a static (and usually cramped) position. Better yet take two Commanders that can't be targeted so easily, arm them with marine killing weapons and have fun after you've advanced your Firebase.

Or Infiltrate Stealth teams up to distract the Devs while your army gets into position, Deep Strike some Drone Squadrons, infiltrate a Kroot firebase to harass them, the options are many and varied, just keep trying till you find one that works.

Quote:
Against my better instincts, the only way to effectively use suits it seems is to either keep the distance near acceptable terrain and fire off missile pods or deep strike right up on 'em with cheap flamers and fusion blasters. An aggressive decision which limits the flexiblity of these wonderful suits.

Honestly, jedibean has struck a nerve. It's bad enough that JSJ with suits has gotten hit to a point where you have to take a break in army modelling in order to build terrain that can maybe facilitate Tau tactics; but if the suits are gonna be exposed this heavily, then at least give us the toughness boost. Good call.
Complaining is never a good call, its not constructive, its a waste of time, GW won't impliment it and it is honestly very... very annoying. So maybe 5th Edition makes Crisis Suits worse, I've also heard that it makes Tau skimmers better but it hardly matters. Times change, editions change, ya just gotta deal with it and bellyaching about it accomplishes absolutely... nadda. So get to work and figure out how to use Crisis Suits better, find new ways for them to function, new ways to incorporate them and use them to accomplish something, but they aren't going to be made tougher. Why? They really don't need it, for the cost they are amazing units already, they don't need to be better. There are very few units in the game that boast the mobility, durability, firepower and cost as Crisis Suits, and certainly not in such a combination. 5th Edition has changed some things, so what it happens, it happened before, it'll happen again.

People complained when 4th Edition came out, people complained when the new Tau Empire codex came out, and now more complaining with 5th Edition, the Tau haven't gone anywhere and have actually only increased in popularity and tournament standings over the years so honestly there's absolutely no reason to complain, many people still say Tau are overpowered even with 5th Edition, we're not doing badly, change is change, if your old tactics don't work now then your just going to have to figure out something new and thats all there is too it. Happened before, and it will happen again.
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 06:51   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash113
Complaining is never a good call, its not constructive, its a waste of time, GW won't impliment it and it is honestly very... very annoying.
You're right. It's funny how it happens, and its probably what I would say too when I'm not up late readjusting my list again and swept up by the idea. :-\ Insta-kill is never heart-warming when on the recieving end and I'm having the hardest time closing the gap without getting ganked.

Anyway, adapting...
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Old 31 Jul 2008, 07:08   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis suits should be Toughness 5 (stop me if I said this already...)

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Originally Posted by Ham Grenade
You're right. It's funny how it happens, and its probably what I would say too when I'm not up late readjusting my list again and swept up by the idea. :-\ Insta-kill is never heart-warming when on the recieving end and I'm having the hardest time closing the gap without getting ganked.

Anyway, adapting...
Don't feel so bad, Eldar and IG Characters can be insta killed by Plasma Rifles... Submunitions, Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistols, Assault Canons... you get the idea. Seeing Eldrad Ulthran go down to a single Assault Canon shot is very sadening . But oh well just gotta deal with it in the end.
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