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Check me on this: Carbine Pinning mechanics
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how everyone does it (when they do it correctly) 0 0%
How I got it wrong (then by all means prove it and correct me!) 0 0%
A new or little known revelation about Pulse Carbines' goodness 0 0%
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 18:45   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Check me on this: Carbine Pinning mechanics

The heart of this question is: do you separate pinning wounds from normal wounds? I say that no, you DONT! Once a pinning weapon has successfully checked range, rolled to hit, and successfully wounded (using different colored dice- along with all the other normal dice), then at that point, all the wounds that got through are rolled as an undifferentiated group, and so long as one casualty is is successfully inflicted, then a pinning check is made!

Pinning rules [pg 32] state that
Quote:
when the firing of a single enemy unit inclicts casualties with pinning weapons, the target must make a leadership check to..
Then, when a firewarrior unit shoots with several carbines in it, where those carbines were shown to successfully wound, it can be said that:
"The Firewarrior unit inflicted casualties, and were equipped with pinning weapons (that were shown to hit and wound)"
- thus, in that case, even if a batch of 6 normal and 1 pinning shots were saved against, and only one save failed... well, pinning was in that group and someone did die, so sorry buddy! Make a pinning check!

There is no 'hit allocation', on a 1 wound per model basis, where you say "ok lets allot those wounds to each of our guys.. ooh look that pinning wound is on guy #3 I'm worried about that one, when we get to him, lets see how that pinning shot gets saved against..." nu-uh! All wounds are rolled as a generalized group, and the remaining wounds that are left after armor/cover saves, are then applied to whomever the owing player desires. To do it the other way is wrong; as you are effectively 'sniping seargents', or doing 'torrent of fire with every single shot'

The exception, where you actually do separate out groups of weapons, does in fact exist; and thats when some of the weapons ignore armor saves (like plasmaguns in a group of bolters). Then in that case those weapons that automatically inflict wounds are handled separately, and first [pg24].

In this light we can probaby see now how 2-3 carbines in a max squad of warriors makes a bit more sense, dont it? As long as one of those pinning shots 'gets through'.. only to the point of being 'eligable to inflict a casualty'.. then its "in", and then so long as somone dies in that shooting action, then the pinning weapon did its job, and shines a bit more brightly that it may have shined before.

[so vote now, I really curious of the cross section of rules knowledge/interpretations]
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 18:56   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Check me on this: Pinning mechanics

The pinning weapon, has to kill in order to force a pinning test, so, it can't just be apart of "a group of shots" fired.

Take it like:

5 Space Marines, Equipped with Bolters, and 1 Missile Launcher.

Shoots at 3 Nobz.

You roll all dice together, have have the Krak Missile a "red dice" and the bolters as "white dice".

3 Bolters hit, Missile Hits, and 2 Bolters Wound, Missile Wounds.

Now, by your logic, all Nobz should be dead, cause hey, it was a batch, and cause one of em is S8, all are!

Simulair, by same logic, if you have a normal "Overheating" weapon in a unit, then all should overheat, and not just the actual weapon.



Simple:

Pinning weapons has to wound and kill on their own, and not other weapons fired "with them".
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 19:09   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Check me on this: Pinning mechanics

Well, no, thats not in any way what I said.

Using your example:

Marine guy takes 5 white dice, and 1 red die, and rolls them all to hit
Marine guy hits with 3 white dice, and the red die hits as well.
The white dice are rerolled to wound, needing a 4+ [I think], and the Krak is rolled, needing anything but a 1.
Now, since the red Die ignores armor saves, is is done first and separately [pg 24], and one nob of the ork players' choice goes instakill-splat!
Then the white dice are resolved, along with any other shots that allow an armor save (like scouts with shotguns mixed in), and any of those wounds that are not saved against are allotted How the Ork player desires.. meaning, if 3 bolter wounds got through, 1 more Nob is dead, and the other survivor is wounded.

So not so simple: the pinning weapons in this unusual Taus' case do not ignore armor saves, and therefore cannot/should not be seperated out in the wounding phase. Thats the special difference. That really only applies to Tau Carbines... as other pinning weapons tend to ignore armor saves as well -and in those other cases [even tau rail rifles] would indeed be handled separately, but not because they are pinning, but because they ignored the armor save. Maybe thats where the assumption that you separate pinning shots out comes from... ?
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 19:13   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Check me on this: Pinning mechanics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaban


Pinning rules [pg 32] state that
Quote:
when the firing of a single enemy unit inclicts casualties with pinning weapons, the target must make a leadership check to..
Based on this quote, that you put on: ...inflict casualtly with pinning weapons... I have to agree with Primo. It pretty much state black on white that the casulatly needs to be inflicted by the pinning weapon, not another weapon from the group. Otherwise you transfer a weapon 'quality' to another type of weapon.
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 19:17   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Check me on this: Pinning mechanics

Then by all means, show me where it lets you separate pinning wounds (wounds not shots) from the rest of the group of wounds to be saved against, when it comes time to see if the unit inclicted a casualty or not [that is the whole point of the discussion], then I will happily change my views on this matter.

But if you cant find it, then maybe its time to change some of your views on this, and this discussion would have been an ultimately helpfull bit of info when all is said an done, woundn't it?

Keep in mind that quote is a widespread rule regarding all pinning weapons/units throughout the game, and that Carbines are a bit odd and different, in that they dont do the norm: negate armor saves, nor make up the entire complement of weapons being fired. And that is why it is handled differently from most other and all other pinning weapon situations out there.
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 19:42   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Check me on this: Carbine Pinning mechanics

Well I don't have my book handy for now, so I'm not sure if they got anything specific about mix weapon unit (the tau codex doesn't if I recall well) but I'll look it up tonight and see.

Granted in my case the problem never arose for I never mix carbine with rifle, and, regardless, I always use different dice for different weapons.

Although I see what you mean and understand your point of view. Since pulse carbine and pulse rifle have the same Strength and AP in a micx unit there is nothing to differenciate them in the shooting phase.

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Old 19 Jan 2008, 19:52   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Check me on this: Carbine Pinning mechanics

Calaban, normally you are a helpful and intelligent member, but this is blatantly stretching RAW until it screams to grab an advantage.

The rules say
Quote:
inclicts casualties with pinning weapons,
Pinning weapons have a different charactaristic than normal weapons just like a missile launcher has different characteristics than a bolter. The missile launcher's charactaristic means that an armor save often won't be taken against it. A pinning weapons characteristic is that it causes pinning if it inflicts a casualty. Because a carbine has a different weapon charactaristic than the pulse rifles in the squad, armor saves against it must be taken separately.
The rules state that the pinning weapon has to inflict the casualty to force a pinning test.

If you were to try to stretch this rule against me I would refuse to allow it. If you persisted, I would leave.
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 20:12   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Check me on this: Carbine Pinning mechanics

You roll the dice for pinning weapons separate from the normal weapons, just as if they had a significant AP or Str score difference. Pinning weapons have to have caused a casualty to force a pinning check.
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 21:15   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Check me on this: Carbine Pinning mechanics

I fully understand that thats how MOST players were taught to handle pinning weapons. That doesn't make it any more correct, in accordance to the rules. I am not in any way stretching RAW to my benefit. I am applying pinning carbine shots in with the rest of the Pulse Rifle shots, because that is what the rules tell me to do. Also note that Rail Rifle pinning weapons dint work this way (unless shooting at 2+ armor), either because they are target locked- and therefore their own firing group- or they constitute the entire set of weapons. Its the Carbine ONLY that works this way... and its not all that different. All I'm saying is that once a carbine successfully wounds... you no longer keep track of its individual status... and that then, if anyone dies... that forces a pinning check.

Everyone thinks that somewhere it must say "pinning weapons are handled separately"... but if you look.. theres no such thing. Read over pg 24, 28 and pg 32, and look for yourself. By all means! The fact that people assume otherwise from gut assumption, or from what they were told, only proves that this is a big deal and needs to be discussed, ya? I wouldn't have brought any of this up in the first place.... if it was common knowledge, or wrong or shady [smarmy?] in some way. This is HOW ITS DONE, as far as I know [until proven/shown wrong- as always]

Now, I am still waiting for any reference to correct me on the grouping- or separation as everyone assumes- of wounds from a mixed set of pinning and non pinning weapons, or how they are handled separately. Or, why/how the different colored die in the group 'that successfully wounded' has to be saved against individually. Its not a torrent of fire. You cant assign that shot to a specific model (why not the Nob?), then see if it saves.

That is the detail that it seems to need the closest look at: if 6 pulse rifles and 2 carbines successfully wound, and that means the other guy has 8 saves to make.. those different colored dice have no meaning anymore, as the number is a raw number (8 ) that is the number of saves that must be made, and who really knows which armor stopped which bullet when the bodies start dropping? There is no specific bullet-armor resolution, and its fully up to the targets controller to determine who was killed, and on the other side of the coin, its just as well that the shooter gets to decide which of those bullets was the one that got him! See?

Thats fully by the rules, and should show, in this light, that so long as the pinning weapon successfully wounded, then the firing unit satisfied any requirements to be eligible to claim a pinning check.. IF someone falls dead. Then its every bit as likely that that pinning shot is the one that got through.. as it is likely that the bullet slipped past all those guys to nail the poor guy in the far rear end of the group.

I'm not trying to whisper falsities in everyone ears, nor arguing for arguings' sake. I'm trying to correct widely faulty conceptions in play mechanics... hopefully to open some eyes, change some play understandings, and open up new admiration to the Pulse Carbine- even if only 1-2 in a squad.

Doesn't it bother you that GW and White Dwarf seems to do it all the time, and finds that a perfectly viable firewarrior setup?? Well, heres the alarming thought: what if thats because this is how they play- fully as the rules intended- this whole time- and just assume that the rest of the world plays the same way as well?!? And: what if there are many MANY rules that the general populace simply have played WRONG this whole time?

There are tons of little rules 'oopsies' that everyone [generaly speaking] seems to know nothing about, and have been playing out incorrectly for years- and yet feel that they are doing it completely correctly. Point of note: didja know that if a unit fails morale in close combat and falls back with no one in base to base with the enemy... that they get away scott free?? And that there is NO sweeping advance roll to wipe them out? You didnt?!? Why NOT [pg 43, sweeping advances, para 2]? If you did know that, then ask your gaming group of friends that vital trivia question, and see how many of them got it right.

I really like discussing these paradigms of wrong play and how to correctly play, that seems odd and alien after so long... maybe some day we can get the rules 99.9999998% correctly understood.... before 5th edition hits the shelves.. :P
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 21:17   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Check me on this: Carbine Pinning mechanics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, 4th Edition, page 22
Roll to Hit

Rolling Dice to Hit
When a unit fires roll all of its To Hit dice together. Sometimes there will be different weapons firing, or firers with different BS in the same unit and you might find it convenient to use different coloured dice for them so that they can be picked out.

...

Alternatively, you can simply make separate dice rolls for different weapons or shooters but as long as its clear which dice rolls represent which shots you can use any convention for this that you like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, 4th Edition, page 23
Roll to Wound

As with shooting, roll the dice together and, once again, you can use different dice to pick out weapons with different Strengths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, 4th Edition, page 32
Special Weapon Characteristics

Pinning Weapons
When the firing of a single enemy unit inflicts casualties with pinning weapons, the target must take a Leadership test to avoid being pinned down.

The first quote means that within a unit, for the purposes of rolling to hit, different weapons must be distinctively rolled for separately, whether that is by making the rolls separately, with different coloured dice, or any other way.

The second quote infers that a similar method should be used for rolling to wound. However, it does not explicitly state that different weapons should be rolled for separately, only different Strengths.

Oddly enough, the rulebook does not explicitly state that different weapons should be rolled for separately.

The third quote is as you quoted, however I would tend to read it differently to you. To me, the phrase "firing of a single enemy unit inflicts casualties with pinning weapons" breaks down as <firing of a single enemy unit> <inflicts casualties with pinning weapons> rather than <firing of a single enemy unit (armed) with pinning weapons> <inflicts casualties>. That is, however, my own personal opinion.


Personally, I would say that your tactic would not work, but I cannot find RAW evidence to the contrary (however, I cannot find RAW evidence in your favour, only a lack of evidence against).
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