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Old 17 Jan 2008, 14:44   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default WH40K Universe Questions

A theory on the origin of the tau of mine was reinvigorated in me after I read the two posts on the Tau and chaos that have recently popped up. However, I am not fully informed on fluff, So i had a few questions:

1. Are there an Good Gods? (I know there are chaos gods, but they are to my knowledge all bad)
2. Did they do away with the entire notion of low level psychic influence exuded by the ethereals as was suggested in the previous codex?
3. Are the Old Ones still around at all or did they just disappear?
4. Do the Tau have any knowledge or strong opinion of the old ones?
5. Can anything good ever come from the Warp? (like from the paedrus rift)

I know these are not all related to the Tau but I want to give my theory on them which requires more information to be complete.
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Old 17 Jan 2008, 15:08   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: WH40K Universe Questions

0k this is how I understand it;

1, The warp is the Emotional dimensions of the universe so all emotions are represented, but as 40k is a wargame and the galaxy is wracked with conflict negative emotions have the most power.

2, I think that its been changed to a form of pheromones, (xenology hints it was genetically engineered into the by an Eldar faction? not sure on this..)

3, the old ones are supposedly gone, although in the Necron codex it does say you could use a fantasy lizard man army to represent their 'devolved' descendants and their followers.

4, I'm not sure the Tau know anything about the ancient history of the galaxy, they are innocent, they thought a greater daemon they defeated was Slannesh itself!

5, Theoretically good can come of the warp, in practice it rarely happens...

I hope this helps, but many on here may know more, alot of this stuff is debated on other posts here, have a look around and you'll probably find other opinions on this.
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-Por’El T’olku Vral’ta

"Lem otesh, lem koem dath kian na slidd"
-Raiph Hastoisista of the Iaereabelah

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We see the galaxy wreathed in war, and we laugh,
We know the futility of the universe and laugh and laugh!"
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Old 17 Jan 2008, 15:10   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: WH40K Universe Questions

Quote:
1. Are there an Good Gods? (I know there are chaos gods, but they are to my knowledge all bad)
Anything Eldar, if you are an Eldar. They are definately the most benevolent.
If you consider the Big E to be a god as well, then he is (for humanity, anyway)

Good depends on race, really. Eldar gods are good for Eldar, Gork and Mork are for Orks.

There aren't any truly benevolent god-beings.

Quote:
2. Did they do away with the entire notion of low level psychic influence exuded by the ethereals as was suggested in the previous codex?
Never existed in the previous codex. I assume you mean the pheremonal influence, which does still exist, and is often debated as to how controlling it is (Tau fanboys say its not, Imp Fanboys say it is :)

Quote:
3. Are the Old Ones still around at all or did they just disappear?
They were massively weakened by the war with the Necrontyr, and nearly wiped out by the enslavers. If any remain, we havn't seen them (unless specualation is true, and they are the Eldar Gods, of which Cegorach is definately alive and kicking)

Quote:
4. Do the Tau have any knowledge or strong opinion of the old ones?
Anything they know was probably dismissed as "Dead race, we can't use them" if they even know of them.

Quote:
5. Can anything good ever come from the Warp? (like from the paedrus rift)
Other than near limitless power, and the only FTL short of Inertialess Drives? Thats a pretty good thing. Not to mention, psykers can be good.

Hope this helps

[hr]

Quote:
xenology hints it was genetically engineered into the by an Eldar faction? not sure on this..)
Yes, the Ethereal pheremone organ (the diamond bit on the head) is the same as in a Q'orl Hive Queen.
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Old 17 Jan 2008, 15:16   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: WH40K Universe Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafe
of which Cegorach is definately alive and kicking
But I've seen hints that he could actually be the Deciever!
__________________
"Ea’ya co’ge’tsua’m, sin’ro’era dao’or’mesme Tau’va"
-Por’El T’olku Vral’ta

"Lem otesh, lem koem dath kian na slidd"
-Raiph Hastoisista of the Iaereabelah

"We saw the fall of our race and we laughed,
We see the galaxy wreathed in war, and we laugh,
We know the futility of the universe and laugh and laugh!"
- A Shadowseer of the Dris'suith.

"La mayyitan ma quadirun yatabaqa sarmadi
fa itha yaji ash-shuthath al-mautu qad yantahi"
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Old 17 Jan 2008, 15:26   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: WH40K Universe Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate13
1. Are there an Good Gods? (I know there are chaos gods, but they are to my knowledge all bad)
Not as such, no. Almost everything in the warp appears to be of chaotic root. There'll be 'warp aliens' and things, we know them: Enslavers and the like, but the truly big things in the warp stem from (or perhaps stem to) the four chaos gods.

The Emperor is our only real candidate at the moment. Faith in the Emperor as a god certainly leads to you exhibiting odd benefits (Cref: Adepta Sororitas, Living Saints etc), but whether that makes the Emperor a god or simply hints to some other mechanism is quite unclear. (Well, IMO it clearly points to it being some other mechanism, but that in itself brings into examination the key question: What is a god?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate13
2. Did they do away with the entire notion of low level psychic influence exuded by the ethereals as was suggested in the previous codex?
It was never really a notion genuinely suggested. The Ethereals aren't noted psykers. We've seen them in fiction displaying precisely no psychic powers or traits or attributes. There's mention of it being a possible 'control' mechanism, but the origin of that, IIRC, was similar to the origin of the Ethereals puppeteering the entire empire via pheromones. (I believe one of our TOers said that even if the Ethereals have immense pheromonal control, you'd still have to be within nose-shot for it to be effective).

With regards to psyker ethereals...you'd have thought someone within the human-viewpoint'd have noticed. It was never a sound or well supported proposal. It persist, but is still neither sound nor well supported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate13
3. Are the Old Ones still around at all or did they just disappear?
The Necron Codex insinuates that there might be surviving Old Ones out there (indeed it suggests a Lizardmen/40k crossover to represent servants of the Old Ones putting up a final stand at some long-forgotten outpost somewhere against the Necrons...). In any case there's almost no support for claiming that any of the Old Ones from the War in Heaven are still around.

However, there are theories that abound on this. We don't really know much or anything about the Old Ones. Gav Thorpe suggested over on Warseer that the Old Ones might not even be a single species. There's many fan-speculation theories out there that suggest Old Ones are 'ascended' warp-borne individuals from any number of species (thus hinting that had/should the Emperor ever ascend(ed) then he'd become an Old One[/i]). Furthermore, Xenology lays some hints that the Old Ones were also the 'Gods' of the Old One races. That is: Khaine, Vaul, Cegorach, Gork, Mork, Mindy etc were all Old Ones rather'n distinct warp-gods like Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch. That Cegorach persists gives our best candidate for the "surviving Old One" award. that is: The Laughing God might be an Old One.

Otherwise, we know of none and there are no solid hints as to their existence. You'd think we'd have seen them given that the Eldar ruled the galaxy happily for many thousands (perhaps even many millions) of years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate13
4. Do the Tau have any knowledge or strong opinion of the old ones?
This isn't mentioned in the background material, to my knowledge. Think about what we know of the C'tan and the Old Ones and the Necrontyr. We know the little hints of the War in Heaven. We find ruins scattered across the galaxy. We find little hints in legends and folktales passed for millenia. IMO, that's what the Tau know.

They might begin to piece together some of the pieces ("Hey, isn't it a bit odd how we all have two arms, two legs and a head...except you, Tyranid!"), but as for actual knowledge of the Old Ones? No, I'd say not.

Furthermore, I doubt they afford any credulity to the theories as theories, but rather keep note of them as more along the lines of "That's an interesting. Testable, evidence? No, thought not..."

The Tau, thus, know alot less about the whole thing than we as readers know of the knowledge seen in Codex: Necrons. But then, who doesn't?

I think exploring the Tau's 'unveiling' of the truer galactic mysteries are on of the most singularly endearing parts of the species. Certainly their involvement on Medusa V was exponentially more interesting to me due to things like the Celestial Accumulator and whatnot. Inter-group planning and orchestrating fun events to imprint "XISOR WOZ 'ERE!" onto a campaign hold alot less interest for me.

In any case: the Tau's unveling of information about the Eldar, the true scale and age of Humanity, the ancientness of the Necrons and C'tan and whatnot. It's dead interesting! Almost a bit Lovecratian (not the mythos, but in that delving into things that'll really give make you go "Sweet Tau'va, save me!" when you realise C'tan can eat stars and are shipped off to be re-habilitated on Au'taal...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate13
5. Can anything good ever come from the Warp? (like from the paedrus rift)
Yes. Chaos is chaos. The warp is chaos. Just as it reflects dark thoughts so too does it reflect good thoughts. Unfortunately, in this fictional universe, hulks come out filled with daemons, not angels. That is...entropy, in the (dis)romantic sense.

To put it more clearly...

In an interview about Mark of Chaos one of the developers said "Chaos isn't fire and brimstone and demons and pain and misery. It's horror. And terror. And custard raining from the sky" or words to that effect.

All those mad things that happen in your dreams, think about the warp like that. It isn't writhing energy, it's writhing energy with the face of that old batty teacher who taught you when you were three, and then is five ducks arguing over the stock prices in MONT'AU whilst trying a bit of water-dousing. moo.

That is: sheer madness. Good stuff can come from it. but by the same token what comes from the warp isn't inherently bad either. Tzeentch, as god of change, isn't a god of tricking people, but a god of change. A finger for a tentacle is change. A life for a million is change. Winning the lottery is change. 4 8 15 16 23 42 appearing on an island whilst you sprout cancerous barnacles is change. Similarly for Nurgle. Despair and decay and horror are on aspect. But it's caring and loving, doting such that you never turn away from him ever again. Anger might be darkness and khorne, but it's that spark of anger that saves your life, that saves your family. That punch-in-the-face that stops someone from going over the edge. Similarly for Slaanesh, it isn't just mindless passion, it's mindless love too. Where do they differ? Why do they differ?

Sure, good things come from the warp. Bad things do to. but Black Crusades, possessed hulks and all that are only abd from a certain point of view. The Warp is, crucially, maddening. That's it first and foremost. Whether it be good or bad is entirely different!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate13
I know these are not all related to the Tau but I want to give my theory on them which requires more information to be complete.
Well, they're sortof key to alot of discussions that go on these days in this specific forum. And they do loosely concern the Tau!


Cegorach & the Deciever

Hints only due to their name, modus operandi and all that jazz. Far more credulous, IMO, would be Cegorach being some sort of offshoot/brother/dad-to Tzeentch.

In any case, don't you think the Eldar'd notice a C'tan as being not their god?

UNLESS THE ELDAR ARE IN ON IT TOO!

(Hmm: Harlequins as willing servants of the C'tan? That isn't actually a bad idea. I'd always written off the the LG/Deciever as simply mistaken identity, but Harlequins willfully siding with C'tan...I like it at first glance...)
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Old 17 Jan 2008, 15:29   #6 (permalink)
Kai
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Default Re: WH40K Universe Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon'Tor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafe
of which Cegorach is definately alive and kicking
But I've seen hints that he could actually be the Deciever!
No... NO... bad Necron fanboy... BAD... *hits with newspaper*. Necrons not all powerful and controlling everything... stop hogging the limelight and let some of the other races retain a bit of their original background material.

*Seethes in a corner out of hatred for Necrons, particularly their 2nd Ed incarnation*
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Originally Posted by Kai
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Originally Posted by †Methelas†
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My subtle diagram disagrees with you.
your "subtle" diagram contains Optimus Prime and Proffessor Farnsworth, it's heresy in it's own right!
Any similarities between your reality and mine are purely coincidental...
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Old 17 Jan 2008, 15:30   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: WH40K Universe Questions

On the matter of Cegorach/Deciever - one a warp god to the eldar, one a physical (albeit powerful) being, that cannot "do" the warp. Its like their arsenic. So no, they are not the same. Deciever could not even exist in the warp - its why warp cannons were built by Vaul to destroy the C'tan!
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Old 17 Jan 2008, 15:41   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: WH40K Universe Questions

It does go someway to explain the powers of solitaires
Quote:
No... NO... bad Necron fanboy... BAD... *hits with newspaper*. Necrons not all powerful and controlling everything... stop hogging the limelight and let some of the other races retain a bit of their original background material.

*Seethes in a corner out of hatred for Necrons, particularly their 2nd Ed incarnation*
I am no Necron fan!

Follower of Loec maybe...

Quote:
Almost a bit Lovecratian (not the mythos, but in that delving into things that'll really give make you go "Sweet Tau'va, save me!"
Lovecraft is one of the major influences on my gaming!...
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"Ea’ya co’ge’tsua’m, sin’ro’era dao’or’mesme Tau’va"
-Por’El T’olku Vral’ta

"Lem otesh, lem koem dath kian na slidd"
-Raiph Hastoisista of the Iaereabelah

"We saw the fall of our race and we laughed,
We see the galaxy wreathed in war, and we laugh,
We know the futility of the universe and laugh and laugh!"
- A Shadowseer of the Dris'suith.

"La mayyitan ma quadirun yatabaqa sarmadi
fa itha yaji ash-shuthath al-mautu qad yantahi"
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Old 17 Jan 2008, 15:46   #9 (permalink)
Kai
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Default Re: WH40K Universe Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon'Tor
Quote:
Almost a bit Lovecratian (not the mythos, but in that delving into things that'll really give make you go "Sweet Tau'va, save me!"
Lovecraft is one of the major influences on my gaming!...
O R'lyeh?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by †Methelas†
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai
Quote:
Originally Posted by †Methelas†
The Titan is not a human, therefore has no genitals!
My subtle diagram disagrees with you.
your "subtle" diagram contains Optimus Prime and Proffessor Farnsworth, it's heresy in it's own right!
Any similarities between your reality and mine are purely coincidental...
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Old 17 Jan 2008, 16:24   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: WH40K Universe Questions

I wanted to just Lulz at that, but need to be constructive.... damn.

Quote:
It does go someway to explain the powers of solitaires
Not at all. Their ability is not the same as pariahs, which are born null. Solitaires give their soul to Slaanesh freely when they take up the position.
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