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Thinking a whole new way
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Old 23 Dec 2007, 23:04   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Thinking a whole new way

Everyone most likely knows everyones pet theory by heart now, since the argue their way so vehemently over and over (and over) again. I certainly do... and have no further interest in them. Why talk about that anymore? Does anyone else see the point of "thinking new ways" for thinking new ways itself??

Maybe its stubbornness, or pride in ones own pet theory, or... military bootcamp brainwashing (where you are incapable of thinking on your own, and must be told what to think.. dont deny thats what bootcamp is all about).. but a refusal to think in new directions is to stagnate in your own repeated discussion of the same gawd forsaken thing. argh!

To see how stubborn [or otherwise] you are: try this mental exercise: take two completely different things, that have nothing to do with each other... then make up a reason why they're connected, that makes some plausible sense. I have shown that >>I<< can do it. Now all of you do it:

Make up a Theory of how Tau are Tyranids. The stubborn of you out there are already making a face and your head is twitching back and to the left or right a bit... yes, I saw that! The point is NOT to say "thats wrong, no way" or "heres all the errors that proves you're wrong".... the point is to be creative, and freely associative (very few are in control of their own minds enough to do this easily), take the hints and hooks that are available out there in the fluff, and show everyone a pattern that makes sense... in its own way.

If you cant do that, and insist on arguing away at anyone else's proposals that dont match your set of views... then you might as well be a Spanish Inquisitor in the dark ages... and there is no point trying to talk to you... as it will only get us tortured and burned alive.

PS: in return, feel free to challenge my mind, by giving two imcompatible elements of the 40k world, and see how/if I can do it.
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Old 23 Dec 2007, 23:28   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Thinking a whole new way

Here's why I think Tau are related to Tyranids...

They're both rapidly evolving. Tau tech has made leaps and bounds in a relatively short amount of time, similar in a way to the Tyranids bio-engineering. The different castes are also bred to do what they do best...the fire caste are the strongest, and breed only with other fire caste members, etc.

Mind control. The ethereals act like synapse creatures, and without them the Tau act on instinct, like a gaunt brood that's strayed too far from a zoanthrope. Except the ethereals control is somewhat more powerful, they don't have to be in the vicinity of other Tau to lead them.

The Greater Good can be comparable to the Hive Mind in a way...in either case all Tau and Tyranids work together for a single goal. No one really knows what either goal entails.


Of course I don't really believe any of that, but it's the best I can do. :P
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Old 23 Dec 2007, 23:29   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Thinking a whole new way

good point about thinking outside the box

i once had the thought that maybe the tau were created or affected by Tzeentch because the tau developed and evolved so rapidly and Tzeentch is the god of ambition and change. the tau also make use of manipulation to turn their foes against each other, and to create allies and/or confusion, much like Tzeentch
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Old 24 Dec 2007, 01:00   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Thinking a whole new way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaban
Maybe its stubbornness, or pride in ones own pet theory, or... military bootcamp brainwashing (where you are incapable of thinking on your own, and must be told what to think.. dont deny thats what bootcamp is all about).. but a refusal to think in new directions is to stagnate in your own repeated discussion of the same gawd forsaken thing. argh!
Maybe it's just me, but I find this comment derogatory in the extreme. It's just plain ignorant.

I've gone to Iraq and risked my life so that you can make stupid comments like this, but it has deeply offended me and I can't help but speak out about it, regardless of the risk of "going off topic".

As many know, I'm a Corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps. Your implication is that I, being a member of the U.S. Armed Services, am incapable of thinking on my own and must be told what to think, despite my status as a Non-Commissioned Officer who must think on his feet and lead groups of Marines to accomplish a variety of tasks every single day.

Not many know this, but contrary to Hollywood's version, the point of Boot Camp isn't to do this at all; it's a teamwork building exercise where they break you of your civilian habits and reliance on your own abilities alone and build you back up as a complex, efficient team so you can become more effective in combat and look out for one another.

Sure, they instill discipline in individuals and demand immediate obedience to lawful orders by members of superior rank, but Boot Camp rewards creative thinking, it doesn't shun it. From day one (what we call Black Friday) we're given problems to solve in new and radical ways, culminating in the Crucible during phase two (San Diego) or three (Parris Island); the ultimate in team-building and problem-solving exercises where you are forced to accomplish complex mentally and physically tasking objectives while suffering sleep and food deprivation. As a way to promote willingness to take charge and actively solve assigned problems, the Drill Instructors reward such recruits with more responsibility, serving in roles such as Fireteam Leaders, Squad Leaders, and a Guide (Platoon Leader in the absence of a Drill Instructor).

The Marine Corps doesn't want a horde of mindless robots, it wants leaders who can make adaptive, effective decisions under the pressure of combat and risk of death. Saying that we're all trained to never make a decision for ourselves and simply follow orders is an insult to every human being who's ever served in the military of any country in the world.

Next time you decide to speak out of your ass with that "holier than thou" attitude, why don't you utilize what we call a "brain-mouth filter" in the Corps and kindly refrain from doing so.

Doom signing off.
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Old 24 Dec 2007, 01:18   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Thinking a whole new way

Before someone jumps down your throat for going off topic, Doombringer, I'll back you up as a fellow soldier (okay... musician) on the threadjack bandwagon with a simple statement:

Don't trust what Hollywood says about basic training/boot camp - trust what soldiers say. We say that the "brainwashing" comment is retarded.

[hr]

A Tau-Tyranid connection isn't hopelessly far-fetched, worlds like Fenris have suspect Tyranid bioforms on them and they're on the other side of the galaxy from the recent Tyranid incursions, while the Empire is right on the Eastern Fringe. Caste morphology to fit roles could be a relic of the evolutionary flexibility shown by the Tyranids.

However, there's a couple problems - first that springs to mind, why do the Tau not feel the pull of the Hive Mind whatsoever... and linked to that, what about their next-to-nonexistant Warp presence?

Or their four limbs?
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Old 24 Dec 2007, 04:44   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Thinking a whole new way

Off to such a good start, then a totally predictable derailment.

Point of Note: I am military Veteran as well, And fully know the intentions of bootcamp

Further point of note... when I was talking about not thinking for yourelf, re read the statement without the red haze of rage, and realize that I was talking about times IN BOOTCAMP, not out in active service.

IN Boot Camp, especially marine boot camp, recruits come in all sorts of different views and opinions. Hell week/month ensues, and that all gets stripped away. Psychological patterns and training routines- disciplines/punishments/encouragements are specifically designed to do this... whether the recruit realizes it nor not. The point being much the same as an actual Brainwashing attempt: you break apart all of their internal views, then punish them for attempting any views of their own individuality after that... then repeat the punishment/rigorous routines several more times, until the 'victims' mind and psyche 'gives in' and seeks/asks "ok, what do you want me to think?" and then it is told, tested, encouraged, and further reinforced. Then, at the end of the brainwashing session, or boot camp... everyones baseline psyche is changed, and in bootcamp, there is a uniformity among the entire group- in line with the end goals of the bootcamp program.

You can deny or accept this as you will, but it remains true. THIS is what I meant by "not thinking for yourself". Meaning what you base believe was implanted into you by someone else, and you cannot unbelieve it. And this pattern is now set to repeat itself (military training for ya, oo-ra!).. and from then on, you are unable to free-associate, because it goes completely against your military programming. Your programming forbids such silly notions as 'think about it yourself', and rather embraces 'do and fully embrace what you are lawfuly ordered to do'. Because thats what works in a combat situation. You dont want a soldier thinking for himself when you order him to assault a bunker. Sorry to say so, but you all did volunteer.

None of this is hollywood. This is personal experience, and further insights from looking into a TI transfer while in the military. To BE one of those brainwashers. There ARE handbooks on the system. I passed after learning just enough to decide I wouldnt be able to do it in good conscience.

This whole offhanded comment in the OP was not meant to be a stab or insult to anyone, just a description of the problem where people grab an idea and refuse to contemplate any other idea... and one of the reasons why its so prevalent. If I hit a nerve, then that possibly because that nerve was raw. And I apologise for that.

Now please, can we leave our bad feeling out of this, and enjoy the background of this hobby we like to play? Sidstylers post brought a big smile to my face... and he didnt need to believe a word of it. HE gets it!
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Old 24 Dec 2007, 06:37   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Thinking a whole new way

Re: bootcamp

Strikes me as a way of getting people used to doing what they're told. That's easiest when they don't think too much for themselves and are an extension of the upper chain of command. That, at least from my meagre five-year repeatedly top-squadron in Britain, national-drill-competition winning squadron seemed to indicate to me. Well, at least. But once you've grown accustomed to following orders, that's the end of it, you can think for yourself once again. It's about discipline, not rigidity. They're not always the same, but more often than not lie close to one another.

(NB- Where DB and Drachhoweveryouspellit go into detail, my suspicion is that the key to Bootcamp is the discipline. As an individual, as a part of a team, as a soldier. You must be discplined in your relations with others, with your planning, with your approach to any sort of work. That'd be why civvies are percieved as a mess/rabble...they've little coherent discipline.

Why flog this horse?

DB is right in part, Calaban, just because it fits your experience, it doesn't make the statements you originally made any less derogatory.

Furthermore, I still dispute the point. Disciplined thinking doesn't prohibit new thinking, but it does hamper the degrees of freedom. It can be indicitive also of where there are problems with the discipline. The study of the construction of the number systems illustrates this. We are 'taught' (told how to think) by being shown the natural numbers (1,2,3,4...). We're then brought into conact with the integers (...-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3...) and we realise "Hey, this is pretty much everything!" But it's not, then we get fractions and decimals! Holes in the system that our rigid thinking wouldn't permit. If your progress far enough in high school maths you come on to the topics of surds and whatnot (square roots!). Further from this we get all sorts of things steadily coming at us. But we develop these easily not by starting out 'coming up' with complex numbers (an ordered pair of real numbers, dontcha know?), it we have to build it up. Well we don't, but at least that way we get a good foundation.

The point is that it rests on discipline. Boot camp is bringing everyone up to the same foundational level of discipline. If you want more complex discipline, you go into the special branches of the military. If you want more freedom within your discipline, you go into the officers and higher rankings of the systems.

The point is that free thinking without the discpline leads to sillyness.

If a seven year old mathematician conjectures "What if we replace five with four and four with seven and seven with five?!?" they may well be thinking freely, but they're not really at a stage to realise the full implications of it. They're a bit...useless. Their freethought in that regard isn't terribly helpful. Sure, it's clamping down on it, but it is 'for their own good' (don't like that, be a hermit). Once you've mastered the discipline then freethought is not only available, but desirable. You don't want military leaders who can't think for themselves, do you?

The same applies, loosely, for any school of thought. Of cours, I'd be hesitant about saying it applies to things like "Freeform dance", but that's just being pernickety.

So, new ways of thinking? Cottoned onto something with Tyranids and Tau have you?

I think not, monsieur!

References, m'dear! Research! Discipline! Follow the standard methods of checking things up and you'd quickly find out that:
1- It's not as original as you think. I mentioned it either in the Puretide thread or the Aun'va/C'tan puppet thread
2- It's less original than that. I distinctly remember a poor member being hounded around this site because he tried to come up with a fun explanation like you're doing now. Linkage

But, to the point

This idea isn't new. You fail, Calaban. I know you were one of the few to approach it with seriousness first time around, but don't try to present it as new!

"Very few people are in control"

As you might've noticed, most of my approaches in almost every thread I contribute to stems from, if not an original idea of my own, the piecing together of fragmentary components or simple invention using inspiration. Further than that, the ability to stumble upon a new idea by just arriving at it is silly. To insist that others do this, claiming that the body of work is new, is silly.

I agree with what I think you're attempting, but your entire approach is very off the mark. The language you present is flawed and in parts very unsubstantiated (I can note one point of anecdotal evidence as fact [paragraph beginning "None of this is hollywood..."] and one point of pure and extremely questionable speculation [paragraph containing "freely associative (very few are in control of their own minds enough ..."]).

Thinking logically and critically, with a mental and argumental discipline ought to be the prerequisite for discussing new theories, not the ability to produce new theories on a whim.

The Xisor Hypothesis
- The squats were essentially wiped out by the Tyranids
- A handful squats managed to create some sort of super-stasis-void-warp-vessel which they used as an 'escape pod' just as the Tyranid hivefleet descended upon this particular squat world.
- The squats emerge from said pod. They appear to have been in stasis-warp-madness. They've emerged during the War in Heaven.
- Managing, through their own impressive science, to continue amidst the war, they live on. Knowing that oneday the tyranids will come. They seek to find a way to prevent it all from going balls up.
- They fail. They are involved with the war in heaven and everything goes just as we know happened, with the descendents of the squats playing roles as suited to any number of paradoxes you wish to invoke/avoid.
- These squats eventually become the demiurg with the passing of the aeons. Their intents almost all but forgotten, save the fore-knowledge of the oncoming tyranids. The message is misconstrewed. It all goes haywire. The knowledge passed on of the tyranids is made all wonky.
- That primaeval data regarding the Tyranids eventually goes towards forging the Ethereals, in league with a small faction of Eldar as part of perhaps a secret coven that's persisted a million years.
- This knowledge goes further though. The studies the original squats made are able to guide the development of the tau. Insertion of very distinct components of tyranid biology into the atmosphere, as guided by eldar Farseers, eventually fuses the to the proto-tau.
- The tau now have aspects indigenous to tyranids. Indeed, to tyranids that are nowhere near the Tau Empire, due to this seemingly time-travel shebang (though it might as well be squats coming from a parallel universe, for all the difference it makes...perhaps one that bordered the 'far deeps' of the warp rather than the shallows we know and fear)
- Case in point and long story short: Tau are Tyranids. Sortof.

New: Sortof.
Old components:
- Timetravelling demiurg-squats is an old favourite of mine.
- As is the union of demiurg and eldar in the creation of tau
- Asserting that the demiurg are an ancient race, but of non-Old One creation. They are, indeed, human afterall. (Guess which song I was listening to when that idea came up?)
New components:
- Simply inserting information about the tyranids into the original squats databanks is enough to create a chain through many millions of years that could go on to influence the development, evolution and function of the tau

Calaban's Scoresheet
Problem: Solved. Hairbrained unheard-before theory as to how the Tau are Tyranids
Objective of coming up with genuinely new thoughts: Failed.

You're task doesn't solve your problem!

You want a new thought? Tie the Rashan to the Ratlings of Orn's World. And then tie the pair of them to the Tyranids.
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Old 24 Dec 2007, 07:36   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Thinking a whole new way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xisor

The Xisor Hypothesis
I "lol"'d at this... ;D
But I do believe that you left out the all important, ubiquitous calculus equations that serve no purpose but to represent variables and/or constants in forms that most people will not understand for the sole purpose of lending credibility through mathematical procedures...

Plus you forgot to mention where the squats found a usable '81-'83 De Lorean DMC-12... 8)
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Old 24 Dec 2007, 07:58   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Thinking a whole new way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeran Van Houten
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xisor

The Xisor Hypothesis
I "lol"'d at this... ;D
But I do believe that you left out the all important, ubiquitous calculus equations that serve no purpose but to represent variables and/or constants in forms that most people will not understand for the sole purpose of lending credibility through mathematical procedures...
Well, I thought about putting them in. But I left them out for the reader to try in their own time. The proof is quite elementary...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeran Van Houten
Plus you forgot to mention where the squats found a usable '81-'83 De Lorean DMC-12... 8)
Actually, it was a blue box...
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Old 24 Dec 2007, 08:06   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Thinking a whole new way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xisor

Actually, it was a blue box...
oooo... Retro...
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