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Tourney play and playing Tau
Old 20 Dec 2007, 20:52   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
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Default Tourney play and playing Tau

So the other day I play against a guy fielding a Khorne army with my own Tau army at 1750 points. This isn't a battle report, but I'll list the units to give an idea of what was facing what.

HQ: Shas' el Fireknife w/2 SD
Troops: 24 FW, 2 Devilfish w/a few upgrades, 10 Kroot w/ 4 hounds
Elites: 2 squads of TL Fireknife, Fireknife, Deathrain and 2 SD
Fast Attack: None
Heavy: 3 Sniper Teams, 2 HH

HQ: Terminator Lord (or something) and another HQ
Troops: 3 squads of 10 Khorne
Elites: 8 Terminators (elite, right?), 3 really pointy big things w/ 3 wounds each
Fast Attack: 8 Raptors
Heavy: None

We start in opposite quarters with some forests and debris terrain. By turn 4, his entire army is destroyed and I've lost one shield drone and my Kroot. At the end of the game, the guy states that in an official tourney I'd get nothing for sportsmanship points.

Now, I maneuver a LOT because between suits and vehicles, I can get around. Obviously I never charged his almost entirely hand-to-hand army. Is it at all reasonable to anyone that I can play the game fairly, within the fluff of my army, but would lose points for a tourney simply because I'm not going to throw away units because my opponent didn't plan his army better?

As a rule, I don't boast about trashing an opponent, I don't rub it in, I don't get mad when I lose, and I don't hold it against an opponent if they get mad because their rolls go badly. Do official tournies actually run this way, where somebody can penalize you for out-playing and out-planning them AND not totally cheesing out an army?
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 22:44   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tourney play and playing Tau

Were your Hammerheads packing Ion Cannons or Railguns?

Also, looking over your list I hardly see 1750 pts, Estimating the cost of each unit I only get to 1550-ish.

Anyway, if you packed Ion Cannons on each Hammerhead, then I'm pretty sure why he made the sportsmanship comment...

with 3 Sniper teams and 2 Ion Cannons alone you have 15 shots that are most likely going to be 3+/2+ and outright kill his Khorne units.

Basically there's very little he can do to counter your army. Judging from what you've shown about his army he had no realistic way of taking on your Devilfishes or Hammerheads and he'd NEVER make it to any of your Sniper teams.

The odds of you winning were tipped ENORMOUSLY in your favor.
Charging his units would not have netted you any real advantage, but at least it would have given him something of a feeling that he wasn't just a sitting duck for your armor piercing army.

Yes, you must have walked all over your army, but I doubt this was a fun game for him to play.

I'm not telling you how to run your army, but next time try using Rail Guns on your Hammerheads (or take Broadsides!) and take something instead of the Sniper Teams. Give him a fighting chance, alright?
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 22:53   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tourney play and playing Tau

Well, sometimes you re going to get bad personal ratings because people suck.

Immature players will get in a real huff if you wipe them out by turn 4, and the immaturity rears its ugly head when they give you a lousy score out of spite.

Then there is hypocrisy. As in precisely your case: your opponent brought an entire army of 2+ and 3+ saves.. yet gets in a huff because you had the NERVE to bring AP2 and AP3 weaponry?? What exactly was his complaint? That he took so few high armored models? or that Tau has armor penetrating weaponry?

Then there are the super competitive jerks.. who keep track of tournament points each round, and feel fully justified in not giving you a high score, because you got points for winning the round... and why should they help you climb higher in the ranks with even MORE points for the round.. if they dont have to?

SO, yeah, people suck! Better to never know the dark seedy underside of this phenomenon, right? And just go play and have fun, and only hope that you dont meet more jerks than anybody else does in the tournament rounds.

Though I walk through the valley of the swarms of the clueless, I shall fear no idiocy, for the M-STAR flagged them 12 seconds ago, and the JDAMS are already freefalling.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 23:29   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tourney play and playing Tau

I agree with Calaban. It IS probably out of spite because he isn't used to no armor saves and ran his termies ot in the middle of the open. (assuming he had them) and lost them ALL in one round.
I'd like some more details on what he had please.
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Old 21 Dec 2007, 00:04   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tourney play and playing Tau

Guys you should keep one thing in mind though... since this seemed like a casual game (to me anyway), the objective for Ninja Snarl wasn't to mercilessly crush his opponent, but to have a fun game with his opponent.

I'd also like to know how he played though, was he a beginner or did he employ sound tactics or what?

From what you've told me it sounds like you entered the game with only one thing in mind: to win the game with minimal losses. You leave very little to chance with this type of list: there's no armor saves for him to make. If you shoot at his units, only 2 dice rolls will decide how many are killed.

In competitive play this would be fine, as you'd obviously both come at each other with the intent to win. But it seems to me that in this scenario only 1 of you did: you.
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Old 21 Dec 2007, 21:07   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
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Default Re: Tourney play and playing Tau

OK, here's the completely detailed list with some minor corrections (it turns out I pulled that list from the wrong printout). Nothing major, but I want this accurate.

-Shas'el, PR, MP, TA, BK, HW DC, HW MT, 2 x SD
-132 Points

2 Units of:
-Team Leader Crisis Suit:BK, PR, MP, TA, HW DC, HW MT
2 SD
-Suit 1: PR, MP, MT
-Suit 2: TL MP, TL
-222 points each

-10 Kroot Carnivores, 4 Kroot Hounds
-94 points
-2 Units of:
-10 FW: 1 Shas'ui, BK
-DF: SMS, MT, DL (and one of the DF has a Seeker)
-115 points for FW, 125 and 135 for the DF

Heavy Support:
-HH: Rail cannon, MT, TL, DP, DL
-185 points
-HH: Rail cannon, MT, TL, DP, DL
-185 points
-3 Sniper Teams
-240 points

HQ: 7.5%
Elite: 25.4%
Troops: 32.2%
Heavy: 34.9%
Fast Attack: 0%

My opponent also had a Greater Demon I forgot to mention.

This list is actually my take-all-comers list since it offers me enough volume of fire and a couple templates to deal with numbers and enough high-strength, good AP shots to deal with MEQ and vehicle-heavy armies. Towards the end of the game, I actually would have charged the remaining Khorne and HQ units with suits except I remembered wrong about the number of power weapons the squads have.

As far as my opponent's experience goes, he's been playing since 2nd edition. Before the game, he was boasting about wiping out my army then proceeded to charge his entire troop complement plus HQ choices through the open and took almost no cover. He deepstruck his termies in front of a DF behind some woods, so the DF was the only thing they could see and shoot at.

Basically, I think the guy was looking to weather a bunch of FW shots (which he could do with all those 2+/3+ saves) and then slam into a static Tau line. He also expected the termies to be able to destroy any vehicles they hit (with almost 30 attacks and chain fists) and only stunned a DF before getting wiped out.

I didn't build my army to exploit any particular rules, either by cheesiness of a rule or sheer numbers. It looked to me like the guy made an army list that could simply shrug off light weapon fire, absorb heavy weapons fire, and then completely overwhelm an opponent in hand-to-hand. For my army, you shoot it and valuable stuff dies. You charge it, valuable stuff dies.

Additionally, because of how I focus fire I barely had a chance to charge anything in range. If an enemy squad was down low enough for me to charge successfully, there were other enemy units around the enemy squad to counter-charge and win. Basically, squads that weren't totally wiped out were still at full strength

The way I look at the army lists involved, either I was going to wipe him out like I did or I was going to let him get into hand-to-hand and wipe out pretty much everything.

Oh, and while this was a friendly game, I should point out that winning and enjoyment (me and my opponent's) are my two primary objectives. However, when I play an experienced opponent who built an army that almost entirely ignores dealing with vehicles and higher maneuverability, I don't consider it my responsibility to throw a game because of his poor choice of tactics.

EDIT: If I come across as a jerk, I apologize. I'm very laid back when I play to the point where I'll just enjoy the banter even if I'm getting trashed. That's why this sportsmanship thing bugs me, since sportsmanship is about winning/losing gracefully and not about making up for your opponent's poor choices.
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Old 22 Dec 2007, 00:48   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tourney play and playing Tau

Sounds to me like the guy never behaviorally grew out of the 3rd grade. I know some guys like that, they're like 35 or 40 years old, but they just never seem to drop the adolescent mentality. Anyway, seems to me HE was the poor sport, not you. I mean, he trash talks you, loses handily (which happens to everyone occasionally, sometimes with no rhyme or reason), and then tries to discourage you from playing. He's probably just trying to scare you off because you're too good of competition for him.

Some people will do like he said at tournaments, but I don't need to repeat what Calaban said. If that happens, it happens, but if you're winning that awesomely, you probably won't need those few points.

There are very few times I throw the game in any way for anyone, except for the possibilty of beginners, who are even then people I already know very well and appreciate honesty, not manipulation. I think you did the right thing to play like that; if some dude tried to talk trash to me and I didn't even know him, and I crushed him, I'd throw his trash right back at him. You'd probably never see him again anyway, and he could use the humility. I would have furthered the salt in the wound by telling him to bring some damn transports (not that they would have helped him much, but it would have better than foot slogging it like Orks, but without the numbers).
"They got ded big shooty gunz dat'll kill tons of boyz, but if yer can get near em den you've got a chance. Just gotta make sure you bring loads of boyz, coz you ain't gonna have a whole lot left when you get close enough to crump em." - Warloard Skarmork, The Great Despoiler
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Old 22 Dec 2007, 01:04   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tourney play and playing Tau

alright, well since I now know the full story I have to agree with the others that you were being a better sport than he was =P
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Old 22 Dec 2007, 03:26   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tourney play and playing Tau

I haven't played in any tournaments, but I have to agree with the other opinions expressed here. It's not poor sportsmanship to win the game, even by a large margin. Arguing about the rules, misdirection of some sort, trying to cheat on the measurements, talking trash or taunting during the game (and before/after it, come to think of it), possibly even finishing off a unit that is broken and running: these are the things that should cost you sportsmanship points. If you had a better list, or the dice just liked you better or whatever, that's just the game. Anybody who claims poor sportsmanship for that is the one demonstrating it.

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Old 22 Dec 2007, 12:21   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tourney play and playing Tau

Sportsmanship was never a good thing with me. I mean, its a wargame. He's the enemy.

Lol last year's tournament I got points deducted for being 'merciless'. (Shh Ions/Kroot/Snipers are gods gift to the Tau) People get frustrated when they run the whole board thru diff terrain and whathaveyou, just to have the target unit take off in a transport. lol

Also, the: "HOW many attacks do each of them get? And HOW many of them are there?" <--in response to a Kroot unit

imo, Tau is meant to be played precise and surgical. Its got a very 'modern war' feel to it.
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