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How the heck to I beat Eldar?
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Old 05 Dec 2007, 11:53   #11 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: How the heck to I beat Eldar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by macboy_geoff
The Avatar isn't worth shooting at, for the most part. He's big, powerful and... slow? If you move right, you'll never have any trouble from him. If you can spare the railgun shots, by all means, send a couple his way.
railgun shots are limited... its better hitting him with low end stuff. heck, my kroot once blew out both his kneecaps with their guns (2 wounds), and then ripped him apart in assault. gotta love 'em!

Quote:
Originally Posted by macboy_geoff
Harlequins are only dangerous when they're in a Falcon. Other than that, they're toughness 3 and have a 5+ save. Other than the cloaking field, they go down quick to shooting. Railgun submunition works wonders, as do missile pods, etc. Fire Warriors in 'fish work exceedingly well (get as close to them as possible... with any degree of luck, there'll be no survivors to assault you. Smart Missiles should be given to at least one thing in your army. They don't require LOS, so the cloaking field is useless against them.
wrong actually. they can't assault out of a falcon. they can when they're legging it across the field. and they ignore terrain, et al., and there is VoT (average 14" sightzone to them, you get one round of shooting). trust me, they're far trickier footslogging it. then there is the farseer fortune harlequin approach. tough one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by macboy_geoff
The 'Fortune' guy is rather dangerous, due to this ability, as well as the less deadly 'doom' one. Don't waste shots on the fortuned unit unless they penetrate his armour save or they're guardians. Twin-linked 5+ is still worth shooting at. Against many units, AP 4 Missile Pods will penetrate their defence.
wrong.
that said, they're t3, and fortune with a 4+ save is still only slightly better than power armour saves. besides, if they are a tough unit and fast(and my 10man "seer council is that unit!) they must go down. rely on dakka, and markerlights. a few fire warrior squads hitting on 2s rips eldar to pieces, even fortuned ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macboy_geoff
Vehicles: Nothing you can do, really. Try to shake them every turn. At least that prevents them from shooting you, even if they still ferry Infantry around. The best chance to kill them is a squad of 3 Deathrain battlesuits, in my opinion. Mathhammer gives them an 18% a turn of killing it. *sigh*
only 3? i field 5 suits at the moment, and want to bring it up to 8. 16 MP shots a turn at bs3/4/5 and 8-16 PR shots, or FB shots will do better damage.

IMO with the area terrain rules, suits are a great buy for a tau army.
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Old 05 Dec 2007, 13:40   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: How the heck to I beat Eldar?

I hate to say it macboy_geoff but just about everything you said was wrong. El Magnifico, Commander_Vimes, and Deadnight have all covered the same thoughts I was thinking (aside from one) and I play both Tau and Eldar.

One thing I do want to say, even though it's been covered, is that harlequins are a huge threat whether or not the walk. Mostly because their walk isn't so much a walk as it is a 7" - 12" move that completely ignores difficult terrain. Falcon harlies are easier to use, but a commander that uses terrain well will certainly be able to get more than 6 harlies to the opponent.

My only comment that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that Avatars have the Molten body special rule. Basically they are immune to Melta weapons (such as a fusion blaster) and flamer weapons. So the PR/FB/MT suit isn't nearly as useful as one would hope.
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Old 05 Dec 2007, 14:06   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: How the heck to I beat Eldar?

one piece of advice i was given a while ago about dealing with farseers (though it works for characters in general):

" if you have to be the closest target - MOVE CLOSER "

might sound obvious but a few piranahs (with or without fusion) or any random high str unit can put a world of hurt on an eldar army if you remove their characters.


i got rid of my tau becuase they were boring (100% win rate, about half of those were massacres) and i now concentrate more on my eldar (though current priority 1 is =]I[= )


falcons are not durable enough that you can just throw them at your enemies front line - i certainly try to minimiese hits on mine.


you (tau) have the advantage of a plethora of str6+ weapons to take eldar on with - you should have no problems dealing with a few falcons.


watch out for fire prisms though - loose your railguns and you're up a certain creek without the required instrument :P
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Old 05 Dec 2007, 14:50   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: How the heck to I beat Eldar?

Quote:
you (tau) have the advantage of a plethora of str6+ weapons to take eldar on with - you should have no problems dealing with a few falcons.
Uh, no? I mean, oh, yeah, sure, I could just bring nine Deathrains and three Ionheads to deal with kitted out Holofalcons, but that would be stacking my list.

Oh, and it still might take more than one volley per vehicle, statistically.
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Old 05 Dec 2007, 15:35   #15 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: How the heck to I beat Eldar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord-General Thunder
Quote:
you (tau) have the advantage of a plethora of str6+ weapons to take eldar on with - you should have no problems dealing with a few falcons.
Uh, no? I mean, oh, yeah, sure, I could just bring nine Deathrains and three Ionheads to deal with kitted out Holofalcons, but that would be stacking my list.

Oh, and it still might take more than one volley per vehicle, statistically.
are we just starting this argument in a different setting, we already kind of aggreed to disagree about monoliths :P


i wont mention tau heavy support as it is impossible to get one that doesnt have a str 6+ weapon.


my tau army had the following weapons:

cyclonic ion blaster
8 plasma rifles
4 missile pods
3 fusion guns
48 pulse rifles
6 rail rifles
4 twin linked railguns


i believe that was it.

i had no trouble against any army with that lot.

i place NO FAITH AT ALL in these statistics people keep coming up with. my eldar list has 2 falcons (or 3 fire prisms), i have yet to finish a game with both those falcons alive (not destroyed :P). both are fully kitted with vectored engines and holo-fields.

i assure you they have not survived 35/36 of their glancing hits.


i have always played that you cannot "Aim" to destroy a holo-fielded vehicle. just glance it to stop it shooting and move on. if the dice gods favor you then you will roll that 11+



i think i have found out why our arguments carried on for so long about the monolith - you rely on math-hammer, i rely on what i've seen in my games (monoliths dont survive as much as math-hammer says they should when i'm around :P)
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Old 05 Dec 2007, 16:00   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: How the heck to I beat Eldar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Magnifico
i place NO FAITH AT ALL in these statistics people keep coming up with. my eldar list has 2 falcons (or 3 fire prisms), i have yet to finish a game with both those falcons alive (not destroyed :P). both are fully kitted with vectored engines and holo-fields.
Well that explains a lot. :

And to think, all this time I thought you were just bullshitting. :P

Congratulations. You're an anomaly.
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Old 05 Dec 2007, 16:37   #17 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: How the heck to I beat Eldar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord-General Thunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Magnifico
i place NO FAITH AT ALL in these statistics people keep coming up with. my eldar list has 2 falcons (or 3 fire prisms), i have yet to finish a game with both those falcons alive (not destroyed :P). both are fully kitted with vectored engines and holo-fields.
Well that explains a lot. :

And to think, all this time I thought you were just bullshitting. :P

Congratulations. You're an anomaly.
:huh:

not quite the return argument i was expecting.


can you elaborate a tad on that :sadnshocked:
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Old 05 Dec 2007, 16:51   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: How the heck to I beat Eldar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Magnifico
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord-General Thunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Magnifico
i place NO FAITH AT ALL in these statistics people keep coming up with. my eldar list has 2 falcons (or 3 fire prisms), i have yet to finish a game with both those falcons alive (not destroyed :P). both are fully kitted with vectored engines and holo-fields.
Well that explains a lot. :

And to think, all this time I thought you were just bullshitting. :P

Congratulations. You're an anomaly.
:huh:

not quite the return argument i was expecting.


can you elaborate a tad on that :sadnshocked:
Well, I'm basing my arguments on statistics. You're basing your arguments on personal experience. Were I to do the same, I would be forced to conclude that Imperial Guard are horribly, utterly broken because my local Guard player never rolls anything but direct hits unless it would be to his advantage to scatter. He does this with everybody's dice.

However, nobody else shares this experience. I must be mistaken. Statistically, this shouldn't happen anyways, so obviously this conclusion is incorrect.

See what I mean?
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Old 05 Dec 2007, 17:09   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: How the heck to I beat Eldar?

Hey Knightperson,

I think everyone else here has already given some pretty good advice as far as units go. I also think your list is pretty well-equipped to deal with a typical eldar list (except maybe the exception of your commander, who'd prob. be a bit better off as a Fireknife), without being stacked.

Tactics wise, I think Eldar shootiness is, on the whole, a bit shorter ranged than than what we've got, meaning that regardless of playstyle (shooty or assaulty), the Eldar will usually want to close distance as fast as possible.* Therefore, you should try to deploy in such a way that a) each of your units are far enough to avoid assault for as long as possible and b) you will be able to shoot at them for as long as possible.

In that vein, the fastest Eldar units should always be right at the top of your target priority, especially their big skimmers (ie: WS,Fal,FP), which often carry a lot of firepower/deadly assault units and can close range the fastest. You should never ignore them, but use that one turn or so of breathing room to focus fire on these guys with all the anti-tank you've got (Str 6+). Shoot one vehicle at a time, getting at least a stun result before moving to the next (I think what Bonesaw meant was that 'Shakens' were not good enough since the skimmers could still move).

If you're lucky and happen to destroy the big skimmers, then you can confiently turn your attention to the fast/assaulty footsloggers for a turn, as any passengers will be pinned. In your case, you'd probably want to use your skimmers to direct-counter the Harles (even more reason to get the enemy skimmers out of the way first!). Even if you can't kill them all at once, you can at least slow them down by skimmer-walling and tank-shocking, since their attacks are nearly negligible to your tanks.

If you are sucessful in eliminating the fast units, the rest of their army should be fairly simple to deal with piecemeal. Footslogging Guardians and such are pretty susceptible to pulsefire, and can be gradually whittled down by FWs, Kroot or whatever while you focus on dealing with the skimmers. The Avatar is more of a decoy fire-magnet than anything (just shoot him with whatever anti-tank you've got left after dealing with the skimmers/assaulters) and multiple RGs will kill him fast. The Farseer (the dude with Fortune) is more of a support HQ, and can't really do much damage on his own, so just kill his buddies and don't waste your own dudes trying to kill him.

In the end, getting assaulted by the Eldar is probably inevitable (it's happened to me just about every game I've played against any Eldar). However, if you plan your game well, you should be able to kill their biggest hitters, while whittling the rest down to the point that either you will be able to win in assault against them, or they will be unable to win back enough VPs before the game ends.

Hope this helps!


*In my own experience, the only way the Eldar can do serious damage to Tau is if they really take the initiative and attack hard. I found that if they are too defensive, they end up taking too much damage from our long range guns. I think Farseer_Emlyn wrote a pretty good tactica about distancing, though it is written from the Eldar perspective: http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...#msg1058375923, meanwhile, if you're willing to read it, I have a pretty good battle report of Tau vs. Eldar that's fairly detailed on strategy and tactics: http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...#msg1058369751
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Old 06 Dec 2007, 05:46   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: How the heck to I beat Eldar?

'Scuse me? I'm not wrong on quite everything. Shooting at a TL 4+ armour save is practically like shooting Terminators... okay, well not quite that bad. Unless you've got a spare two Devilfish full of Fire Warriors to bring against one squad, they'll survive nearly anything. And don't even get me started on Fortune cast on 3+ save Shining Spears, etc...

Okay, I'll take your guys' words for the Harlies, but walking Harlequins have never survived to attack me. I pummel them with Smart Missiles and FOF and that's it. Maybe I'm just lucky? Or my opponent doesn't use cover particularly well?

And... I'm sorry El Magnifico. I'll never accept that Eldar tanks, properly kitted, are not pure, unadulterated cheese. ...Statistics-wise, anyway.
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