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Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations
Old 25 Oct 2007, 16:44   #1 (permalink)
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Default Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations

I have been looking at Tau Army lists lately and noticing, especially for Tournament lists, that Fireknife seems to be the reflex response to stay competitive.* But I am wondering why people do not couple Crisis weapons based on usable or effective range.* I know why people pick Fireknife - I get three Str. 6+ shots at 24", one that has great AP.* For me, it seems that the Fireknife does not take the fullest advantage of range.

Now something that I am seeing more of is Deathrain suits that maintain the effective range of the Missile Pod without fudging it to cram some lower AP into the mix.

I believe that Crisis Weapons should be based more on the effective range of the weapon.* Perhaps the greatest culprit for blurring the line is the Plasma Rifle.* I think that a player can uses the Crisis Jump Pack effectively and get in that 12" sweet spot so that your PR can do the damage that it is supposed to do.* Players that are only getting one shot from their PR's may still get that shot, but are not getting the most out of the weapon that they are paying a premium for.

I think that the range of the two weapons needs to be within 6" of each other to remain effective and make the fullest use of them.

Here are weapon couplings that I believe make sense based on effective ranges:

Plasma Rifle + Fusion Blaster - why go Fireknife at 24" when at 12" you can get the same amount of shots that will be more effective?* Helios is one of my favorite combinations because of the potential damage it can deal and how the rapid fire PR compliments the FB.

Plasma Rifle + CIB - 6 shots at 18" and 7 at 12".* The ranges, again, have a suitable overlap and is great for anti-infantry.

FB + Flamer - If you are getting that close with the FB, you may do well to pour on the flames too.* I know that many use FB's to tank hunt, but once the tank is busted, why not maximize your hits against infantry that may be lurking in the area.* Something else to consider is that where there are tanks, there are probably heavy weapon toting infantry lurking in cover to get a shot.* This is where the flamer works in tandem with the FB.

CIB + Burst Cannon - Same range, lots of shots.* I would argue that this combination really emphasizes the point with how much fire power that is released here.

Missile Pod + Missile Pod - Given the great range for this weapon, you are really best suited to TL it and get the most out of every shot.* Stay in at the 38"-40" mark, JSJ and watch your opponent get frustrated that you are not moving any closer because you don't have to, unlike the Fireknife counterpart.

Here are some combinations that I feel are mismatched and do not take full advantage of range and the number of shots:

Plasma Rifle + Missile Pod - As stated above, the ranges don't jive with each other and you end up compromising both the range of the MP and rapid firing the PR.

Burst Cannon + Missile Pod - Also known as the 'Firestorm', this may deal a lot of shots, but you are probably better served by swapping the PR for the MP and getting in 6" closer.* Same shots with 6" difference and better AP.* I feel that the Firestorm configuration is one of the least effective combinations we have, given the mismatch of range.

Missile Pod + Fusion Blaster = I know that on paper you have 3 very high strength shots for tank hunting, but I would rely more TL fusion, especially at <6".*


In short, I would recommend considering the effective ranges of your weapons and the purpose of your Crisis Suits before you start tacking on the "best" weapons that I can.* One weapon that I left out is the AFP.* Since no line of sight is needed, I would tend to match this with weapons in the 12"-18" range.* Since it is an anti-infantry*weapon, I would go with Burst Cannon or Plasma Rifle.* One configuration that may be interesting, since you need to upgrade to a 'Vre anyway for the AFP would be the following:

Shas'Vre - TL Burst Cannon, AFP, HWMT

This would match the range and give a few more shots to a 'fairly' reliable anti-horde suit.

I hope this helps players when selecting Crisis Suit setups and battelfield roles.
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Old 25 Oct 2007, 19:47   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations

personnal i cannot sing highly enough for the plama missile combo, it has a hard kick that can wipe out many heavy infantry (SM/ necron) in numbers, and then can jump into rapid fire shot, jump out and you are still out of range, the missile pods power on the pressure after the plasma's have killed the annoying characters

i use 5 suits of the same configuration, 3 monats, 1 body guard and 1 shas'o, this works really well as the high BS of the 'o hurts the bigger thing more reliably and the normal ones all hit the little 'uns. i have these guys running around together, all with a sheild gen so any shots taken at them are either 3+'s away or 4+'s. if the enemy charges oone of them then the rest move away and set up the firing line for when the suit dies. it really works
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Old 25 Oct 2007, 20:26   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations

i am thinking a bit like chris i prefer that sort of tactic although i have 2 body guards and 4 crisis but it is still the same idea
still i only use O'Shasheera or Commander Shadowsun

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Old 25 Oct 2007, 21:04   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations

Originally Posted by warriorchris
personnal i cannot sing highly enough for the plama missile combo, it has a hard kick that can wipe out many heavy infantry (SM/ necron) in numbers, and then can jump into rapid fire shot, jump out and you are still out of range, the missile pods power on the pressure after the plasma's have killed the annoying characters
This may be, but my post was written to consider that, given the circumstances that you list here, maybe there is a better way. If you are getting that close, why not a Fusion Blaster or CIB. Both of these offer the AP to do better than the MP. I'm not sure on the math, but if you are that close, even a BC could offer the same results as a MP at that range.

By choosing weapons that fire at comparable ranges, you should be utilizing your Crisis suits in a more effective manner.
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Old 25 Oct 2007, 21:41   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations

You might Also want to check out some of the quirkier combos there 77.

CiB & Missile Pod make for a very effective combo, due to massed AP4 dakka.
TL Missile Pod & AFP is a very effective Deathrain leader or mid-range shas'el combo.
Firesurge (Fusion Blaster, Missile Pod) is actually useful for tank-hunting, and likely to claim more kills than sunforge (TL Fusion). The reason: It can start the game on the table, and take potshots at pretty much anything from turn 1. Also, 3 S7+ shots are better than 1 S8 shots against Skimmers or obscured/smoked vehicles.
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Old 26 Oct 2007, 00:35   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations

I can understand the combinations with the MP more since it is still an Assault X weapon. Like I said earlier, the real culprit is the the Plasma Rifle due to its Rapid Fire profile. I think that if you are going to take a Plasma Rifle that you should be taking a weapon that sticks in around the 12"-18" range.

I suppose I have seen too many people use Fireknife configurations and then they sit back taking MP shots from a distance and say that the PR is good if the enemy gets too close. I think that Crisis Suits should be one of the most aggressive elements in your army. If you have 2 differing weapons and are not in range to fire both by your 3rd turn, I don't think that you are getting the most out of your Elites.

Incidentally, my new list has a Deathrain team with the TL MP + AFP combo.
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Old 26 Oct 2007, 02:25   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations

I think you have some good points, 77, but I don't think a proper Crisis suit loadout is always necessarily about creating the one perfect unit counter or matching ranges. In particular, I really don't think your judgement of Fireknives is totally fair.

Fireknives are taken in tournament lists because they basically offer a exceptionally flexible combination of high-strength, low-ap guns that are effective against a very broad range of targets. Apart from being the 2nd longest ranged Crisis config (along with the Burning Eye), Fireknives don't really specialize at any one thing - and they aren't supposed to, since they are meant to be used in situations where you aren't able to tailor or adapt your list to any particular opponent. For example, while Fireknives might not be as good at busting skimmers as Deathrains, Fireknives are sure better than everyone else. While Fireknives aren't quite as good as Burning Eyes against Tactical Marines, sure aren't bad; they can do it effectively without having to go in within 12'' and can take out any Marine transports to boot. Fireknives don't replace any of the other crisis configs, but they are good because they make a Tau army flexible and provide a lot of possibilities (they can adapt well to a lot of 'roles&#39, all in one package.

I think the real problem you're getting at lies in that some people think that Fireknives are the end-all-be-all of Crisis suits.* Seriously, if you're seeing ppl just using the MPs and leaving the PRs as dead-weight, then I think you're probably either seeing ppl using Fireknives wrong or not bringing enough Deathrains. The very nature of the Fireknife setup means that it really shouldn't be on anything that isn't a Crisis HQ or a TmLdr w. TA, so there really shouldn't be cluttering up the Elites slots at all. Also, as a Fireknife user myself, the whole 24''/36'' deal has really never prevented me from taking the offensive or from being able to put in a few rapid-fre plasma shots, so I really don't know what to say about that - except maybe that it's probably not the Fireknife's fault, but the user's.

Anyways, these are my general thoughts about Fireknives. Otherwise, I pretty much agree with what you say about specialist configs.

*Truth be told, I really don't think there's any end-all-be-all config for Crisis suits, though I think there are a few that are generally better than the rest.
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Old 26 Oct 2007, 11:15   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations

Has anyone ever thought that maybe by specializing your crisis suits to take on certain targets you can expect to encounter, you can get more out of your suits? (most of us probably have) The thing with Fireknives that I have noticed is that while flexible, as stated earlier, there is such an AP and range discrepancy that it sometimes seems silly firing both weapons at the same target. We can achieve flexibility through specialization. We all know what Deathrains can do, we all know what Helioses (Helios's? Helioss? ???) can do, etc. The point I wish to make is bordering on horse beating, but important nonetheless. By assigning roles to our crisis suits that are more focused, and taking enough variety in configurations to get what we need, we get more for our points and aren't firing certain weapons at unideal targets nearly as often. Some might say that certain configurations are too specialized, and I would agree unless your list is being tailored against a certain opponent. My 2 favorite setups, deathrain and helios, are not overly specialized, and can engage a variety of targets quite effectively. I'm not saying the fire knife is inferior, it seems rather effective in certain situations, but overall seems to lack focus, I guess I just don't understand the infatuation.
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Old 26 Oct 2007, 11:25   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations

And a lot of youre ( 77 ) suggestions need you to get really close ( you got a fusion fetish my friend )

I'd rather stay at a safe range I like the fireknife ( gamewise ) and the deathrain ( Altough IM not sure of the config at this moment lol )

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Old 26 Oct 2007, 11:39   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Crisis Suit Weapon Combinations

I didn't think anyone actually used fireknife any more.....

I prefer the specialisation in my suits, Helios and Deathrain all the way.

Cannot reccomend Deathrain enough, its so damn cheap, accurate and useful.
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