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volume vs weight of fire?
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Old 11 Oct 2007, 11:13   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default volume vs weight of fire?

i just read through the post about "quality and quantity" and it got me thinking about something... are TA always worth it?

for example would you rather have

1) a 3 man stealth team at BS4
2) or a 4 man stealth team at BS3

i have always used TA's wherever possible, but maybe thats a sign of how little i know! i was just wondering if you guys could tell me what works best for you. isnt having more shots better (usually) as you could possibly get lucky?
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Old 11 Oct 2007, 11:48   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: volume vs weight of fire?

I would take the 4 man team. The reason for this is to reduce the squad to below 50% you would have to kill 3 of them. Also with a single markerlight hit, you are at BS 4 and with 2 Markerlights... >
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Old 11 Oct 2007, 12:41   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: volume vs weight of fire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCKitsune
I would take the 4 man team. The reason for this is to reduce the squad to below 50% you would have to kill 3 of them. Also with a single markerlight hit, you are at BS 4 and with 2 Markerlights... >
I would agree, statistically 9 shots at BS 4 will yeild 6 hits, 12 shots at BS 3 will STILL yeild 6 hits, but as KCKitsune pointed out having 4 models in the unit is better than having three. So all things being the same I would definately use 4 of em without the TAs.
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Old 11 Oct 2007, 12:44   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: volume vs weight of fire?

I`d say that it depends.

I never take TAs on Stealths, since just adding more suits is just as effective (even more, since the ML-guiding works so much better) than spending 1/3 of the Stealths cost on equipment:

3 suits with TA: 9 shots, 6 hits
4 suits standard: 12 shots, 6 hits

After one MArkerlight:
3 suits with TA: 9 shots, 7-8 hits
4 suits standard: 12 shots, 9 hits

With the Crisis, I see things differently. My Deathrains always have a TA - why? Because the cost of two TAs wouldn`t be enough to buy me a third Deathrain, that`s why. The points difference between the TA and another, random third hardpoint is about 5 points - not much. So, you pay effectively only about 5 points to make your Crisis much better in what he is doing, whereas you`d have to pay 10 points to make the Stealth better at what it is doing, which you could do just as well by adding more Stealths.

But that`s just me.

Cheers,-
Bone
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Old 11 Oct 2007, 20:23   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: volume vs weight of fire?

There are reasons to run 3 BS4 Stealth suits as opposed to 4 BS3 ones.

The reasons have to do with reliability not necessarilly the average mean kills.

For more info on what I am talking about I refer you to this article on probabilities.

http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...d.php?t=102228

So the average of both sets from either configuration works out to 6, but what is the probability that each set will get at least 6 hits? Well after doing that probability calculation for both sets I came up with these numbers:

Probability for 3 BS4 Stealth Suits
0 hits = .00005
1 hits = .000915
2 hits = .0073
3 hits = .034
4 hits = .1024
5 hits = .2048
6 hits = .2731
7 hits = .2341
8 hits = .117
9 hits = .026

So by adding up these numbers we see that there is roughly a 65% chance of getting at least 6 hits with 3 TA'd stealth suits.

On the other hand the 4 BS3 Stealth Suits break down like this:
0 hits = .000244
1 hits = .002929
2 hits = .01611
3 hits = .0537
4 hits = .1208
5 hits = .1933
6 hits = .2256
7 hits = .1933
8 hits = .1208
9 hits = .0537
10 hits = .01611
11 hits = .002929
12 hits = .000244

Now adding up these probabilities we find that the chances of getting at least 6 hits is around 61% about 4% lower than the BS4 stealth suits. The reason for this is known as variance. Basically the BS4 stealths suits are more reliable at getting higher numbers.

Either way, I feel that 65% odds is not very statistically reliable so I like to look at a what a particular setup does around 85% of the time(5/6 is .833 or 83.3% and I want to know what my units are going to do 5 turns out of 6). In the case of the BS4 stealth suits they hit at least 5 times 85% of the time while the BS3 suits hit at least 5 times only about 80.5% of the time.

So as you can see the BS4 suits are slightly more reliable overall yet if you're a gambling kind of person, more shots may be your thing since the BS3 suits have the potential to hit 10 or more times.

There is one other benefit to running the smaller squad of 3 suits with targetting arrays, and that is a smaller footprint makes it easier to hide them, easier to avoid scattering barrage weapons, and easier to get them all in range without having to get unreasonably closer to the enemy. Afterall, stealth suits want to maintaint maximum range to make full use of their Stealth Fields, and it's a lot easier to jump 3 suits just into 18" range than it is to jump 4.

Do these benefits in reliability and small squad size outweigh the potentially higher damage and defensive bonuses of the larger squad? I'll leave that up to you to decide, but personally I hate stealth suits either way. :P
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Old 12 Oct 2007, 00:03   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: volume vs weight of fire?

nice input guys!


the thing for me is that i do like to gamble, and i enjoy the thrill of riding the game on a single squad (only in games for fun though :P)! of course that a big factor, but i personally like having more attacks should i ever get into close combat (darn those lucky fleet rolls/jet troops/etc) and improving my chances in leadership related things.

a good portion of my markerlights often go to increasing the BS of my stealths, as my main opponents are shooty horde style armies.



i understand how it would be helpful being able to leave a smaller footprint, and hide, especially against my common opponents.


i will have to consider the info you guys gave me, and check out some more mathhammer....

but anyway, THANKS!

and if i have the points why not just have a full squad of stealths with TA's? ;D
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Deathrain's are the Jessica Alba of the Crisis Suit world. Beautiful curves (on the missile pods 8)), fantastic moves, can knock you out from a distance, and always make you wish you had more.
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Old 12 Oct 2007, 00:16   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: volume vs weight of fire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yosh
and if i have the points why not just have a full squad of stealths with TA's? ;D
Because Deathrains are waaaaaay better :P
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Old 12 Oct 2007, 06:26   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: volume vs weight of fire?

Of course, cost wise, it is probably better to go fo a small unit with targeting arrays.

And I agree with Israfel, Deathrains are so much better. Twice the range, almost twice the firepower, stronger suits, for - what - 50pts per suit?
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Old 12 Oct 2007, 08:17   #9 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: volume vs weight of fire?

I would go with 4 stealths with Bs3 than 3 stealths with BS4. More numbers means higher survival rate.

But when given the chance to use stealths, I will always use a large squad of 6 stealths with TA on them. Shooting 18 str5 shots at Bs 4 is godlike. When I use stealths, people start to tremble as my stealths are often killing one squad at a time when they are in range to shoot anything.

But I do undestand that if they die, they will rip away one big chunk of my army in terms of VP points. So I do not often use them. Also, my army have alrady sufficient anti-infantry weapons, and I need more high strenght weapons.

So if given the chance, I would take a squad of crisis suits in fireknife configuration than stealths of any kind.
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Old 12 Oct 2007, 08:40   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: volume vs weight of fire?

not talking so much about the topic... ive got a question

what is a deathrain? what combination of weapons is that for a crisis?? (is it for a crisis no?? )

see you ty
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