[Trogdor]

I continue a discussion from this topic, that went a little off topic.

Basically it is about taking out GEqs and how to do it with a tau-army. The main focus lays on horde-styles armies, like orcs and tyranids.
Red_Dog pleads for the usage of firewarriors, I disagree.

Originally Posted by Red_dog

Trogdor -> How exactly do you deal with GEQ? I remmeber your list was something like this ->

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HQ with 2 Fire Knives, Elte with 8-9 "cheap rains" Troop with 2 Mech squads, no fast attack, and Heavy support of two HH (one Ion, one Rail?) and 2-3 XV88s.
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Not quite: HQ with 2 shas´els, 1 Fireknife, 1 with FB and MP, 9 deathrains, 2 FoFs, 1 piranha, 2 Ionheads and 3 broadsides. All in all 1750 pts.
It can be found here.

Again, Mech squads (even with SMS) will not stop properly crafted GEQ. Seriosly, I see people underestimate hordes a lot. Especially with almost no means of counter strike. Yes DeathRains can provide cover fire and may be mech squads will be lucky enough to down 20-40 GEQ (per game). But you have to be silly if you think you can out run fleeting beasts (24'' possible). You have few turns (about 3) to take as much of them as you can so the structure will fall apart.

Let me see... my tanks put out 22 shots per round, this makes 12,22 kills on average (not including the firewarriors inside or the ioncannons on top)...
the deathrains add 18 shots and thus 11,25 kills. So I have alone by these means 23,47 kills/turn on average... And the broadsides and ioncannons as well as the commanders can still target other units if necessary.

More than enough...

For that you need some means of effective resistance. Usually it is Pie plate of HH. But IMO FW are just "cheaper" for that. Plus they can guide. They will also take some roles and give more freedom for you to point your rail gun at big guys.

In an all-comer-environment standing FWs are wasted points. The small benefit in this scenario is by all means not enough to field them. As I showed above there is no actual need for those standing unit, as other elements of the army can and will take care of these GEq-units as well.

***You know what, I am definitely posting a small template on what army should be able to counter ^_^ I'll put it in general boards***

Please do, I am more than curious. You mentioned 100+ gaunts, a rarely seen choice. I am looking forward to it.

Greetz, Trogdor

[Red_dog]

Not quite: HQ with 2 shas´els, 1 Fireknife, 1 with FB and MP, 9 deathrains, 2 FoFs, 1 piranha, 2 Ionheads and 3 broadsides. All in all 1750 pts.
It can be found here.

Sry, but I was close wasn't I? ^_^

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Let me see... my tanks put out 22 shots per round, this makes 12,22 kills on average (not including the firewarriors inside or the ioncannons on top)...the deathrains add 18 shots and thus 11,25 kills. So I have alone by these means 23,47 kills/turn on average... And the broadsides and ioncannons as well as the commanders can still target other units if necessary.

More than enough...

Please do, I am more than curious. You mentioned 100+ gaunts, a rarely seen choice. I am looking forward to it.

I am talking about 100 spine Gaunts. Costs 600 points. thats less then a half of 1750 armies. Then about 500 points for strong sysnapsis skeleton. that makes 1100 points. Now we can add 650 worth of stuff. Could be more gaunts, intercepting beasts, Monster fire support, etc... I mean I have a tyranid codex. I am NO expert, but here is the GEQ "heavy" style I would anticipate... Real GEQ heavy nid can field 192 maximum of gaunts... (6 x 32 = 192)

Three turns equal 70 kills (rounding up). He has enough units to wipe you out. Considering you army shoots nothing but GEQ. As we start to direct power to something else, we will loose GEQ stopping power. You can run but not for long.
I am not saying you CAN"t win. I am saying I see a definite advantage from the GEQ kinds of armies...

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Ok now for question -> how can we deal with GEQ? These are solutions...

-> XV25s
Pros: Massive fire power, Power armor, Stealth Field, JSJ.
Cons: Takes precious elite slot. They are not cheap.
-> AFP
Pros: Excellent "bolter" pie plate that even ignores cover.
Cons: Must have its own dedicated unit, there for needs elite slot. Not cheap.
-> Submission shot
Pros: Highly effective pie plate. Comes with rail gun which expands its roles.
Cons: To many thing to do. Rail gun is needed elsewhere most of the time. Not cheap.
-> Fire Warriors
Pros: Effective weapons(GEQ wise), Easy to use, carry marker lights as a bonus, cheap, only need troop slot, good leadership, could be bonded.
Cons: Die to anti infantry weapons unless in cover, not "dirt cheap", need marker light guidance (BS 3).
-> Kroot
Pros: Dirt cheap, only need troop slot. Have pretty consistent 4+ cover save, stand there ground in HtH.
Cons: Have sooo many things to do besides fighting off gaunts... They are one of the key objective holders, counter infiltartors, etc. etc. Simply not enough "time".
-> SMS
Pros: indirect fire, can be mounted on tanks.
Cons: Not enough "stopping power", not really cheap.
-> Flamers
Pros: cheap, effective, can re roll wounds when TL, and never "miss".
Cons: Need Elite slot, most likely lethal for the user (XV8s tend to die when up so close)
-> Fire Storms
Pros: Relatively cheap (50 points), lot of shots. Can be effective VS other types of enemies.
Cons: Again, need a bloody elite slot, need Market light guidance (BS 3).

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Ok so thats my personal take on it. Take it as you will ^_^. BTW, Trogdor, thanx for taking it on separate topic. We kind of deviated on that one ^_^.

Anyways, I hope I helped. ^_^

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!

[Trogdor]

Ah, spinegaunts then... nothing to worry about.

Spinegaunts are unable to even damage the antennas of my tanks. A nice little skimmershield is all I need to stop them. i would plant it up in the corner and feel safe inside. Before that I would target all units carrying guns with S6+. The gaunts will be widely ignored in favor of the bigger threats.
When the gaunts pour in I simply shoot them from behind my skimmers.

But now my question; how would firewarriors stop them? IMO they have even more troule, as they are not fast enough to redeploy in a "fortress" pattern and generally more vulnerable to assaults.

Besides: A list like this is useless in an all-comer environment. CC-heavy armys woulf tear through to easy. And keep the metagame in mind: Who is realistically fielding that much gaunts? In the end it is just an unlikely scenario.

Greetz, Trogdor

[Red_dog]

Spinegaunts are unable to even damage the antennas of my tanks. A nice little skimmershield is all I need to stop them. i would plant it up in the corner and feel safe inside. Before that I would target all units carrying guns with S6+. The gaunts will be widely ignored in favor of the bigger threats.
When the gaunts pour in I simply shoot them from behind my skimmers.

True, but they are not there for your skimmers. They are there to take out your XV8s and XV88s, and to "protect" the rest of the stuff tyranid player might have. They have enough points left (650 points) to field enough anti tank power. (beside, many synapsis creatures have anti tank weapons, zanatropes, Tyrants...)

But now my question; how would firewarriors stop them? IMO they have even more troule, as they are not fast enough to redeploy in a "fortress" pattern and generally more vulnerable to assaults.

I gave you 8 possible solutions on how to deal with GEQ. None of them are perfect! FWs have their huge flaws just like other solutions. Fixing them with things like "skimmer bump" kroot, and others can help a lot. I sudjest FWs as one of the ways to help menage GEQ.

Besides: A list like this is useless in an all-comer environment. CC-heavy armys woulf tear through to easy. And keep the metagame in mind: Who is realistically fielding that much gaunts? In the end it is just an unlikely scenario.

True it is hard to get 192 gaunts. 100 is doable -> 4 squads of 25. On a HtH issue. I got three words (or two things) to say.
Catalyst plus feeder tendrils. They are dirt cheap. tendrils makes them hit on 3+. Catalyst is even worth against HtH armies, it stops things from dieing before they can strike back. So all those attacks will rick its destinations.
Plus they aren't alone, Stealers, Ravagers and Homries (hornies LoL, j/k) are usually there to help out...

***You can counter catalyst by anti "psychic" (can psychic hood counter it?), or by shooting. Usual HtH armies not extremely good at both... Though I find it quite balanced***

***Though bugs are a good example of GEQ, they are not the only one, nor are they perfect. Orcs and IG have there ups and downs. Both do not need synapse, and can counter moral in different ways (Mob rule, Master-Vox).
Orcs are fast and tough. IG are numerous and shooty.***

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Again I am NOT saying, you can't beat them. Sure you can. I am saying, you should may be look into these things. I mean, I for sure respect good GEQ type army...

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!

[Trogdor]

Orks are no threat at all. Especially not when fielded as horde (green tide). They lack anti-tank capabilities. The range is too low...

IG is not that hard to beat, too. Of course it gets hard when the IG-player tailors his list, but in an all-comer environment they are rather easy to take down.

@ firewarriors: of course they are a cheap source for S5 shots. Fact is that they are also too vulnerable and that there is in fact a way better alternative: kroot.

Your argument that kroot are too "busy" is flawed. Why can´t kroot hold an objective and still shoot? Why can´t they infiltrate and still use their guns?

In the end it is irrational to prepare for a horde in it´s extremes when writing a list that should fare well against all possible enemies.

So firewarriors are not a valid option, whether you want a static core or not.

[Red_dog]

Orks are no threat at all. Especially not when fielded as horde (green tide). They lack anti-tank capabilities. The range is too low...

IG is not that hard to beat, too. Of course it gets hard when the IG-player tailors his list, but in an all-comer environment they are rather easy to take down.

As much as I respect you, I find this an absurd statement.

Both Orcs and IG are good opponents when played properly. Horde orc does has platy to offer. (If I don't post on orc board, doesn't mean I don't read it.) One of the smartest orc players plays horde (IVEATCH).
Same goes for IG. A SIGA with few movable parts (to capture objectives) and rock solid static core can give you a bloody good fight.

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Your argument that kroot are too "busy" is flawed. Why can´t kroot hold an objective and still shoot? Why can´t they infiltrate and still use their guns?

In the end it is irrational to prepare for a horde in it´s extremes when writing a list that should fare well against all possible enemies.

Kroot -> usually they will infiltrate heavy weapon teams, shoot them, and then either get assaulted, or assault themselves. alliteratively they can infiltrate someone else. My guess, is that you are not going to infiltrate GEQ squads... (also it is kind of hard to immobilize SIGA army whith only 2 squads of kroot)

On "not preparing" for horde. Well, again its not tailoring its covering bases. Like you bring weapons against MEQ. You also (somewhat, missiles seems to work ^_^) bring weapons against TEQ, monsters, armor. Why not GEQ? Thats my main point. I am not saying, lets stack up on AFP, fire storms and Pulse fire... I am saying. Army should have all bases covered in whatever fashion.

P.S. I said what I needed on FWs ten times over. I am not trying to convince you on taking them. In this topic, I am mainly saying, hat in your particular army, you probably lacking anti GEQ.

EDIT: Also, just like you any horde opponent will try to cover the bases as well. That means that he has some way to deal with mass armor and other things. How he does it is up to his play style.

Walk Tall

[razgriz_cipher]

The only weakness of kroot is that they require cover and large areas of it. The other problem is cramming as many kroot in base to base contact is not a good idea because of pie plates. Kroot in the open are not a viable option. They can go down so easily. These are the weakness of kroot.

[Trogdor]

Sorry, but orcs are really as easy to beat as I said. They fall for the skimmers. Rockitz abd zzzap guns are limited to 24". With 6" movement an orc has 30" range. A Tau skimmer is somewhat between 5 and 6" long. If I keep my skimmers at the edge of my tableside, moving to the sides, the orcs are not able to shoot me at all during the first turn. This gives me 1-2 turns to level his anti-tank weapons, naturally beginning with the zzzap-weapons.

All that is left of these anti tank units will have to deal with the low BS and the high AV of the skimmers. An orc with a rockit launcha has a probability of 2,5% to destroy an hammerhead. This means it would need 40 (!) orcs with rockitz to score a "vehicle destroyed"...

I did not mean to insult orc players... this is not their flaw, but a result of the old codex they have. I am looking forward to the new version.

But I will have a look at IVEATCH´s list and maybe challenge him on VASSAL.

And for IG: I played many games against those SIGA armies. Denying them LOS is the way to go. Key of the game is then to take out the basilisks.

Kroot -> usually they will infiltrate heavy weapon teams, shoot them, and then either get assaulted, or assault themselves. alliteratively they can infiltrate someone else. My guess, is that you are not going to infiltrate GEQ squads... (also it is kind of hard to immobilize SIGA army whith only 2 squads of kroot)

This is plain wrong. The kroot will use infiltration to be positioned last and to use every cover available. Of course thy will stay at the own lines, doing the exact same as firewarriors would.

I am saying. Army should have all bases covered in whatever fashion.

Oh, I agree and I share your dislike for "tailoring".

In this topic, I am mainly saying, hat in your particular army, you probably lacking anti GEQ.

Funny thing, in my old topic with my first deathrain-heavy list you said I would have problems with MEq and TEq. Interestingly I have not lost one game since then, including one victory at a tournament and one second on another (I had one draw, that took my rating down).
Frankly: I encountered demon princes, terminators, guardsmen, marines, aspect warriors and many other things. I only once wished my army to be different: Against guard with chameolin in ruins... I massacred him nonetheless, but gork be my witness, I wish I had some flamers ;D

But on the GEqs: I showed you that I am capable of killing 23 GEqs/round, 20 more if need is (FoF). And while killing those 23 or even 43 models I still have three railguns, 2 ioncannons and 2 commanders for shooting other stuff.

And now, praythee, where is this not enough?

P.S. I said what I needed on FWs ten times over.

So did I (and Tonka and others). We are not going to convince each other. But honestly, we knew this beforehand, did we not? But hopefully any interested players reading this have something to think about, be it that they agree with you or me.

@ doctor wu: I disagree. only 50% of the unit need to be IN the terrain. 5 out of ten are enough and do not require much terrain or close formation at all.

Greetz, Trogdor

[Red_dog]

On orcs ->
You can't possibly take out all his anti tank power in one turn... for once he can loot old bassy (stick him sooo far away as usual) or plain Russ. Also he usually has soo many rokkits... Some of them can infiltrate (I think Komandos & Tank Bastaz...). Zappaz, are actually less common.
Also even free booters are not going out without armor. Dirt cheap Khans (with Meks), buggies and war tracks. These things are plain dirt cheap and all will help to shorten the distance between you and main title wave. Or at least keep you busy.

And for IG: I played many games against those SIGA armies. Denying them LOS is the way to go. Key of the game is then to take out the basilisks.

Well, I think Wargamer takes Russes and demolishers with plasma cannons and such. And has like unbelievable amount of lass/auto cannons...
He goes full static, though I think, you have to get some rough riders/hellhounds/sentinels/Armored Fists for objective capture...

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This is plain wrong. The kroot will use infiltration to be positioned last and to use every cover available. Of course thy will stay at the own lines, doing the exact same as firewarriors would.

Ammm well, kroot obviously infiltrate TERRAIN, just simple the closest one to their target. I think things like Devastators usually deployed close to terrain, kroot can infiltrate terrain that closest to their goal...

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Frankly: I encountered demon princes, terminators, guardsmen, marines, aspect warriors and many other things. I only once wished my army to be different: Against guard with chameolin in ruins... I massacred him nonetheless, but gork be my witness, I wish I had some flamers ;D

My guess you win lot since you are able to react to situations fast and analyze it correctly (Means you aren't dumb ^_^. I can't speak of your opponents since I don't know them). It is not because you have an "unstoppable" army. I never said you weren't smart. I said, that you army has some holes...

***Your approach is simple, lot of armor, few troops, lot of missiles, few rails.
Thats good. But has its down sides. Every suits/ vehicle that you loose, will bring the army significantly down... Loosing about 6 suits, which easily doable in one turn, can be a hard blow, don't you agree?
Just like in your example, their will be times when you need that edge. Its just a "surface of problem". My simplest advise to you would be, may be some "reconfiguration? Like loosing piranha and one mech squad and stocking up on kroot (if you think they can solve the GEQ whole efficiently)? Or swaping one unit of death rains on fire storms?***

But on the GEqs: I showed you that I am capable of killing 23 GEqs/round, 20 more if need is (FoF). And while killing those 23 or even 43 models I still have three railguns, 2 ioncannons and 2 commanders for shooting other stuff.

All this is when no retaliation. Thats not very likely... and thats only 20 GEQs... and no cover negating...

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So did I (and Tonka and others). We are not going to convince each other. But honestly, we knew this beforehand, did we not? But hopefully any interested players reading this have something to think about, be it that they agree with you or me.

Of course we did ^_^ common mate, that the point of this thread ^_^.

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!

[Trogdor]

No, kroot or other configurations (firestorm has BC and MP?) screw with my tactics. The krrot work against my tactic of target denial, and the BCs do not fit my tactic of focusing firepower, due to their low range.

Seriously, I do not see these holes, other than mybe lacking the ability to deal with three monstrous creatures with 2+ armor and wielding S10 weapons, but meh.

I guess I will have to keep on winning to convince you ;D

Maybe we ahould try a little game? VASSAL may have it´s flaws, but it is the best we got and it is good enough. PM me if you are interested, we can surely make up time and date.

greetz, Trogdor