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OK, have the battle box, now what :)
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 11:27   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default OK, have the battle box, now what :)

The battle box came froma friend (I think its the old one) and has:

- A Commander Battlesuit
- 3 BattleSuits
- 12 Kroot
- 12 Fire Warriors.

So, next questions are:

(i) What are the optimal weapons for the Battlesuits? We assume the Commander has a different "best" array. Thoughts are to give all the suits missiles, what else - especially the support stuff, not clear on that?

(ii) What to buy next to get a useful force ? First thoughts are:

- Sky Ray - gives heavy support, plus can use as Hammerhead as well
- 3 Stealthsuit box to give extra flex
- Leaders for Fire Warriors, Kroot to up their capability a bit

(iii) How useful are Pathfinders, given that they have to come with a Transport, vs just buying more firepower (eg more suits?). Also, can one convert normal Fire Warriors into Pathfinders (costwise seems a good idea?)

(iv) Is 12 FW enough....the Kroot look like better troops overall.
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 12:44   #2 (permalink)
Xan
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Default Re: OK, have the battle box, now what :)

1) Shas`EL with Targeting Array , Missile Pods , Plasma Rifle and hard wired Multi trackers is good , fireknives are very efficient and BS5 ones are also reliable. Personally I`m running El with Targeting Array , Missile Pods Cyclic Ion Blaster and Hard Wired Multi Tracker. You can consider exchanging Missile Pods for Plasma rifle.
For elite suits , well I`m using Twin Linked Missile Pods and Targeting Arrays as monads. Reasonably costed , efficient , long range and very reliable. Other major battlesuit school is "Fireknive" which are good can pack nice punch but for my taste are too random (BS3).
2)You don`t need to buy FW team leaders , just paint their pads in diffrent color to indicate that they are team leader. In case of kroot , there are nice conversion guides around here how to make kroot sharper out of normal kroots.
While you have 3 crisis suits they can fill all your elite slots. In your situation I would think about getting
a) Skyray Box , but not for the skyray itself. This box is awesome as you can make , Devilfish, Skyray , Ionhead and Hammerhead out of it. With some magnets (search for guide in hobby boards) you can have nice swapable chassis to test out all those vehicles.
b) More Fire Warriors. They are one of best troops in 40k for their points. Remember rifles only.
c) Something for Fast Attack. Vespids are situational and well you need some experience with 40k to use them good.
Piranhas are great , love them with passion. Landraider busting , drone spawning little fishes. Run them with Fusion Blasters and Targeting Arrays in 1-2 sized teams. Check tactic made by israfel420 http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=35145.0 .
d) Drone squadrons , well you should have like 8-10 drones (2 on each suit spure and 2 on FW spure) so you can fill 2 FA slots with 5 drone squads. Why 5 ? as tonka stated they have optimal chance on inflicting damage on vehicle. Deep strike them/use as distraction/ shield for your IC/ tie up enemy shooty units for 1-2 rounds. They are good for their points.
3) Pathfinders , don`t like them , too squishy but allot of players are successfully with them. You can easily convert normal fire warriors to pathfinders, check hobby section again there should be guide there.
4) It all depends on your play style, Fire Warriors with their awesome range and high strenght on weapon are one of best troops choices in 40k for their points.
Kroots are nice too inflitration denial , scary firebase in woods (use team of 10 , put them 7" in woods , this way you can shoot at opponent and he wont be able to shoot back) they are good countercharge or distraction.
It relay boils down to your play style , while you have 12 FW and kroots I would just buy box of Firewariors and Kroot and check both in larger masses and find out which ones suits you better.

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Old 30 Jul 2007, 12:51   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: OK, have the battle box, now what :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by freecloud

(i) What are the optimal weapons for the Battlesuits? We assume the Commander has a different "best" array. Thoughts are to give all the suits missiles, what else - especially the support stuff, not clear on that?

(ii) What to buy next to get a useful force ? First thoughts are:

- Sky Ray - gives heavy support, plus can use as Hammerhead as well
- 3 Stealthsuit box to give extra flex
- Leaders for Fire Warriors, Kroot to up their capability a bit

(iii) How useful are Pathfinders, given that they have to come with a Transport, vs just buying more firepower (eg more suits?). Also, can one convert normal Fire Warriors into Pathfinders (costwise seems a good idea?)

(iv) Is 12 FW enough....the Kroot look like better troops overall.
(i) It depends what you wish to do with the suits - anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-horde, anti SMurf, etc.

(ii) A hammerhead or broadside for heavy support, stealth suits would be good, it all depends what type of army you're trying to make.
You just use normal Fire Warriors to act as Shas'uis, but distinguish them with markings or something.

(iii) Pathfinders are useful for calling in seeker missiles, and having a transport is a good thing, it helps them stay out of trouble and marker-light the enemy form a safe distance/place. One could convert them but it would take some time, especially as they have different armour etc.

(iv) Again, depends on the army... Kroot are better in close combat, whereas Fire Warriors are best at ranged combat.


[size=smaller]Fixed quote -mace[/size]
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 16:20   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: OK, have the battle box, now what :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShasVre_Koyaan_KiVak

(i) It depends what you wish to do with the suits - anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-horde, anti SMurf, etc.

(ii) A hammerhead or broadside for heavy support, stealth suits would be good, it all depends what type of army you're trying to make.
You just use normal Fire Warriors to act as Shas'uis, but distinguish them with markings or something.

(iii) Pathfinders are useful for calling in seeker missiles, and having a transport is a good thing, it helps them stay out of trouble and marker-light the enemy form a safe distance/place. One could convert them but it would take some time, especially as they have different armour etc.

(iv) Again, depends on the army... Kroot are better in close combat, whereas Fire Warriors are best at ranged combat.

[size=smaller]Fixed quote -mace[/size]
Thanks for the replies so far...some answers:

(i) Well, the enemies are pretty standard - Both Eldars, SM/CSM, Necrons figure largely, with the "Horde" types less frequent. Question though is what are suits best used for - seems to us - tho Tau Newbies - that the infantry are pretty good vs unarmoured stuff but have little armour killing capability? It seems to us newbies that missiles + tank killer gun is about optimal, what are the commonest suit configs?

(ii) As a first choice, which is better - Hammerhead or Broadside - ie if you only had 1 slot, what would you use?

(iv) OK, so a mix is useful....2 units of each a good ambition? Are there "optimum" unit sizes like the 10 Eldars + Guns, 5 Man SM Fireteam etc
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 17:08   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: OK, have the battle box, now what :)

As far as crisis loadouts go, here is what I like to run in 1500 point games

HQ
"Centurion" Shas'el, CIB, PR, TA, HWMT - 100 points

"Fireknife" Shas'el, PR, MP, TA, HWMT - 97 points

Both of these are excellent commander fits with the fireknife more versatile against light armor and having better range, while the Centurion simply mows down light to heavy infantry with everything in between.

Elites

2X"Deathrains" - Crisis, TL:MP, Flamers - 94 points
2X"Deathrains" - Crisis, TL:MP, Flamers - 94 points

I run two teams of deathrains configured as such in 1500 points. The reason I use flamers instead of targetting arrays is for 2 reasons. First it saves me 6 points per suit which works out to 24 points of savings for all 4.

The second is the flamer makes a great situational backup weapon. See the role of deathrains is that of long range artillery and fire support. Basically they shoot down transports, skimmers, and light vehicles at range as primary targets. Secondary targets are anything fast with an AP4 or worse save. Other than that they can shoot at whatever but try for things theat don't get a save first since 8 Twin linked BS3 missiles will generate 6 hits per turn on average with 5 wounds meaning 5 kills if they get no saves.

The flamer comes into play largely against fast moving low toughness/bad save horde type enemies. Gaunts, genestealers, orks in trukks, most eldar/dark eldar, and elysium drop troops IG all get roasted by flamers. Plus they ignore cover which is nice for killing Lictors, pathfinders(the eldar variety), and ratlings. The flamer doesn't often see use, but when it does you'll be glad you have it. I find I most often like having it when I face nids. Most fast moving nids are a 5+ or worse saves(genestealers being the exception). I find that when facing swarms of gaunts or rippers, the missiles do an excellent job of whittling the enemy down for the first 2 or 3 turns, then the flamers can roast little gribblies before the suits charge in with 6 STR5 attacks on the charge. Usually this is enough to destroy even large units of gaunts and the like, and at the very least, the deathrain unit is so cheap that this tactic will save points even when they are sacrificed by keeping those fast assaulters out of your static troops.

As far as the fireknife goes, I think it is overrated for the points as it is unreliable.

The firestorm on the other hand, Crisis, BC, MP, MT - 50 points is an excellent buy that excells at killing infantry and also has the capability of taking down light armor.

Stealths are also good for many reasons, and often find their way into my third elite slot.

As far as non suits go, get at least 2 Skyrays so you can have 2 Hammerheads. Get a third if you feel so inclined as 3 HH's are never a bad idea. I would consider using the Ioncannon in addition or in lieu of the railgun as it really is a better buy in many respects for the points, though a railgun is nice too. I usually run 2 IOnheads and either a Railhead, or 3 Sniper Drone teams.

For heavy armor hunting you are going to want fusion or railguns. Some will recommend using the Helios Crisis config. Crisis, FB, PR, MT-62 points. I think the range on the fusion blaster(12"), especially melta range(6") is far to short and exposes your expensive suits to too much fire/assault. Others will say twin linked fusion suits that deepstrike are best. I think they suffer from the vageries of both the reserve roll and the deepstrike rules to be relied upon.

Instead go with Fusion blaster equipped Piranhas. There are many reasons to use these for tank/IC hunting, and I want to thank Xan for linking my tactica. I run 2x2 squads of Piranhas in 1500 point games with TA's and FB's.

If you decide to use railguns instead for armor hunting, don't use railheads. THey are too expensive, are shaken too easily, and besides if you are not using their submunition you are wasting them. Instead consider a team of broadsides. THey rock, but are more static in nature so plan accordingly.

That brings me to one final point. your best friend on the battlefield is what stops your worst enemy. That enemy is assault, more specifically fast assaulters. The only reliable way to stop fast assaulters is to be able to block them with skimmer walls that protect your more static assets. I prefer not to use devilfish in this capacity instead relying on hammerheads and Piranhas to fill that role. But that is just my playstyle as I prefer not to go all mech.
Hope that helps some.
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 19:37   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: OK, have the battle box, now what :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by freecloud
Thanks for the replies so far...some answers:

(i) Well, the enemies are pretty standard - Both Eldars, SM/CSM, Necrons figure largely, with the "Horde" types less frequent. Question though is what are suits best used for - seems to us - tho Tau Newbies - that the infantry are pretty good vs unarmoured stuff but have little armour killing capability? It seems to us newbies that missiles + tank killer gun is about optimal, what are the commonest suit configs?

(ii) As a first choice, which is better - Hammerhead or Broadside - ie if you only had 1 slot, what would you use?

(iv) OK, so a mix is useful....2 units of each a good ambition? Are there "optimum" unit sizes like the 10 Eldars + Guns, 5 Man SM Fireteam etc
(i) Well I would use the crisis suits as anti-infantry, with a Burst Cannon, Plasma Rifle and a Multi-tracker, maybe a Shield Generator, if you intend to go close range. Or if you wish to keep your suits out of trouble you could equip Twin-Linked Missile Pods and a Targeting Array or something of the like. There are hundreds of combinations, and you just need to experiment and find what is best for you.

(ii) Hmm... A broadside is a cheaper model both in terms of points and money, has basically the same weapons as the Hammerhead, but is basically a static defence platform. The Hammerhead is more expensive, but is more maneuverable and also has an Ion Cannon option, which is great for taking down heavily armoured infantry, and light vehicles (such as transports). Again, it is a matter of preference and the type of army you plan on running.

(iv) Tau aren't supposed to be a close-combat army, so in my opinion it is best to have more Fire Warriors than Kroot, because compared to Tyranids and close combat specialist Kroot don't stand a chance. With Kroot, I would make the biggest unit size possible and stick them into a nice big wood. Thanks to their special rule, they can shoot further through the wood than enemies can shoot back at them, so they can annoy your opponent without being able to be harmed. This should lead to enemy troops being redirected to attack your Kroot in close combat, which should have quite a good chance of winning, due to their big unit size and the fact that they are fighting in the woods. This is I find is a good delaying tactic, and can take down a number of troops in the process, leading to more victory points!
Generally I have 12 Fire Warriors in a unit, but some people like to have 10, and in 400 point games I have two units of 6, and one of 12; so again experiment!
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Old 31 Jul 2007, 08:50   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: OK, have the battle box, now what :)

Thanks so much people - it is very useful when someone says "this is what I do" rather than "what do you want to do" when you are a Newbie, 'cos you just don't know ! Israfel....very useful discussion on suits, makes things much clearer.

Reading between the lines I get the impression that Suits, Fire Warriors, Kroot and Hammerheads are "first choice" troops, with everything else being more situational though Piranhas and Stealth suits seem to be "next up" with Broadsides maybe also in this group.

What is emerging is a "first cut" 1000 pt army that has as its basis these 800 pts:

- Suit Commander + Suit bodyguard (Various nasties) (c 150 pts)
- 2 x Suit pairs as elites (Missiles, Flamer) (c 100 pts each)
- 2 units of FW (c 100 pts each)
- 1 unit of Kroot (c 100 pts)
- Hammerhead (c 150 pts)

Thats c 800 pts, so can add roughly 2 units to it - any recommendations?

Reading through all the posts I guess I have two more question:

(i) re Devilfish - are they any use in the game, or for the points are you just better off with more troops or suits?

(ii) Drones - how are they best used - with units or in a squadron, and if with units, which ones (assume those with expensive troops?)





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Old 31 Jul 2007, 10:05   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: OK, have the battle box, now what :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by freecloud
Reading between the lines I get the impression that Suits, Fire Warriors, Kroot and Hammerheads are "first choice" troops, with everything else being more situational though Piranhas and Stealth suits seem to be "next up" with Broadsides maybe also in this group.

What is emerging is a "first cut" 1000 pt army that has as its basis these 800 pts:

- Suit Commander + Suit bodyguard (Various nasties) (c 150 pts)
- 2 x Suit pairs as elites (Missiles, Flamer) (c 100 pts each)
- 2 units of FW (c 100 pts each)
- 1 unit of Kroot (c 100 pts)
- Hammerhead (c 150 pts)

Thats c 800 pts, so can add roughly 2 units to it - any recommendations?
I say that is fine by me save for the body guard. Bodyguard always cancel out your IC status and that in turn is not a very good thing indeed. I say those suits can be used to put more stuff in your elites slot.

As for the extra 200+ points, if you want to go mech, I say that would be good for buying some pirahnas and devilfishes. If you want to go hybrid you can consider firewarriors, kroots, broadsides, hammerheads, and pirahnas there. As for static, just go with broadsides, firewarriors and kroots (maybe sniper drones but I have no experience with them).


Quote:
Reading through all the posts I guess I have two more question:

(i) re Devilfish - are they any use in the game, or for the points are you just better off with more troops or suits?

(ii) Drones - how are they best used - with units or in a squadron, and if with units, which ones (assume those with expensive troops?
To answer your question

1)For the points the devilfish will offer your troops many bonuses. They offer your troops greater maneuveribility and enabling them to choose their own batttles. In addition, they will enable your fire warriors to preserve their own VPs and also take table quarters faster.

However, for that amount of points, you can potentially buy another squad of fire warriors. So it is either you trade off mass firepower or you trade off speed.Tactics such as Fish of Fury are always associated with firewarriors on devilfishes.

2)Drones are actuyally pretty much underestimated for what they do best. They are actually best used as both extra wounds with firepower or a harrastment unit. So either way is fine, just as long as you do not put too much of them.

In terms of attaching them to what, I say they are best attached to the deepstriking monats or stealth suits. They will offer the monats extra wounds, while they will offer the stealths more firepower and pinning opponents (if possible).
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Old 31 Jul 2007, 10:43   #9 (permalink)
Xan
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Default Re: OK, have the battle box, now what :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by freecloud
Thanks so much people - it is very useful when someone says "this is what I do" rather than "what do you want to do" when you are a Newbie, 'cos you just don't know ! Israfel....very useful discussion on suits, makes things much clearer.

Reading between the lines I get the impression that Suits, Fire Warriors, Kroot and Hammerheads are "first choice" troops, with everything else being more situational though Piranhas and Stealth suits seem to be "next up" with Broadsides maybe also in this group.

What is emerging is a "first cut" 1000 pt army that has as its basis these 800 pts:

- Suit Commander + Suit bodyguard (Various nasties) (c 150 pts)
- 2 x Suit pairs as elites (Missiles, Flamer) (c 100 pts each)
- 2 units of FW (c 100 pts each)
- 1 unit of Kroot (c 100 pts)
- Hammerhead (c 150 pts)

Thats c 800 pts, so can add roughly 2 units to it - any recommendations?

Reading through all the posts I guess I have two more question:

(i) re Devilfish - are they any use in the game, or for the points are you just better off with more troops or suits?

(ii) Drones - how are they best used - with units or in a squadron, and if with units, which ones (assume those with expensive troops?)
A) Commander + Bodyguards = NO NO NO ! , you see IC status on commander makes him untargetable. Look this way if you have some drones off vehicles/from drone squad put them in front of commander. Now your enemy has to chew thru drones before he can shoot at him. If you give him bodyguard you are loosing IC status. Same with drones on commander.
B)Hammerhead I would recommend running Railhead in such config Railgun Smart Missile System Multi Tracker Decoy Launcher Target Lock =180p. Its t
If you plan on using Ionhead well I`ve nicknamed this config a Lawn Mover
Ion Cannon Burst Cannons Multi Tracker Decoy Launcher Flechette Discharger Target Lock=145
Keep it close to enemy , even if they charge it they will hit only on 6s and flechetesh will make them hurt , especially GEQ( Guardian EQuivalent)
C)Devilfish well they are two builds , cheap one with only Decoy Launchers and it acts as APC (Armored Personal Carrier) or binged out WarFish which acts as IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle)
Typical WarFish Configuration Devilfish Targeting Array Multi Tracker Disruption Pods Decoy Launcher Smart Missile System .
You should check Fish Of Fury tactics http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=4425.0
D)Drones... they can do so many things best thing , you should have allot of them put like two 5 drone squads in free FA slots and play around with them. Tying up enemy shooty units , forcing target priority test , deep striking and shooting at back of vehicles (AV10 + pulse fire = unhappy opponent) , Cannon Fodder , Ablative Wounds for your IC`s. They are one of our most awesome units , opponents often underestimate them until they do something spectacular. Best thing is we have ways to get free drones (Piranhas).

About addons to list , hard to say what will suit you.
Mech = More HH DF and Piranhas.
Hybrid = Some vechicles , Sniper Drones , Brodsides , some battlesuits.
Static = More Kroot and FWs , Sniper Drones , Broadsides.

You can proxy Broadsides with normal crisis suits , just make it clear to oponent. Sniper drones are easy to convert too from normal drones and firewariors.
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Old 31 Jul 2007, 19:13   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: OK, have the battle box, now what :)

A very big thanks to all....scratch one bodyguard

Anyway, dropped by the shop today to get a Sky Ray thingy but the guys said it doesn't get the Hammerhead gear so I got a Hammerhead instead, and a Stealth suit box. So, now have:

- Commander Suit (will load up as suggested above)
- 3 Suits (seems like the missile / flamer combo is most recommended)
- 3 Stealthsuits (seem like a useful option)
- 12 FW
- 12 Kroot
- 12 Drones (def field 1 Drone Squadron, attach rest to units)
- 1 Hammerhead (will make with removable weapons)

Need to play around with crisis suit weaponry, prob need an extra suit to get 2 teams of 2. Will proxy other options till we get a feel of what works best elsewhere in the army, though prob get another 12 FW anyway.
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