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flechettes in a piranha squadron
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 06:37   #11 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: flechettes in a piranha squadron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Tau
Think of it like a power weapon. If each individual model gets a Power Weapon than they all ignore armor saves in close combat. However, if only the sergeant has one only he ignores Armor Saves in Close Combat. Now replace "Power Weapon" with "Fleschette Launcher" and "Sergeant" with Piranha.
Apples and oranges. In this case the piranha has no WS score. Unfortunately, I can't think of any other units (not that I can think of) that we can use as a comparison. It's a no-WS group of vehicles that has to use the standard unit coherency rules, with an upgrade that effects 'an attacking unit'. The attacker can't pick out a single vehicle model and the rules for the upgrade are gloriously ambiguous.
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 06:39   #12 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: flechettes in a piranha squadron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Tau
Think of it like a power weapon. If each individual model gets a Power Weapon than they all ignore armor saves in close combat. However, if only the sergeant has one only he ignores Armor Saves in Close Combat. Now replace "Power Weapon" with "Fleschette Launcher" and "Sergeant" with Piranha.
If each individual model gets a Flechette Discharger than they all ignore armor saves in Close Combat. However if only the Piranha has one only he ignores armor saves in close combat.

Holy crap! Piranhas ignore armor saves in Close Combat :P

Personally this is a pretty controversial topic. It says it is resolved before the assault so that is pretty awesome. Im under the impression that it could only hit the one they assaulted. Unless you keep them in a line and they hit all of them at the same time. In that case, thats a 4+ on each model for each piranha. o.0 Thats pretty intense.
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 11:01   #13 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: flechettes in a piranha squadron

Hang on, Hang on, Hang on....

When you assault into close combat and make a close combat attack do you not have to be in base-to-base contact (Baring specail rules).

Thus no, only models that can actually 'clobber' the vehicle get hit by Flechette. I think its very clear to be honest.

Genmotty
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 15:53   #14 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: flechettes in a piranha squadron

would a team on piranha's have to have squad coherency?? i mean they are just vehicles. btw this is probably a stupid question
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 16:57   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: flechettes in a piranha squadron

Yes the squadron must maintain coherency.

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Old 30 Jul 2007, 17:19   #16 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: flechettes in a piranha squadron

So goign by this, there is little point to equipping more than one Piranha in a squad with the Flechettes.

I mean as long as you keep the one with the flechettes in front with the others 4" behind(vehicles in a squadron get 4" coherency BTW), then it should be the only one in assault and therefore you are not getting any more benefit by having ore flechettes.

Hmmm maybe my 140 point 2 man FB Piranha teams need to be 150 point two man teams...
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 17:40   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: flechettes in a piranha squadron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
When you assault into close combat and make a close combat attack do you not have to be in base-to-base contact (Baring specail rules).

Thus no, only models that can actually 'clobber' the vehicle get hit by Flechette. I think its very clear to be honest.
That's not quite true. Though any model within 2" of an engaged model can contribute to an assault, the text for the discharger specifically mentions 'any model attacking'. When assaulting, every model in a unit attacks, whether they can contribute or no. I read the above as "any model or unit attacking."

Additionally, the piranha isn't assaulting anything; it lacks a WS and so falls into that special category of 'models without WS'. No, the flechette discharger only works when the vehicle is being assaulted. And I can't see the sense of an argument for only effecting base-to-base models working, since any of the assaulting models within 2 inches of their base-to-base buddies will also be contributing their attacks to the whole.

It seems to me that there are two possible interpretations here:

1. The flechette discharger only takes effect once per assault, regardless of how many models took it as an upgrade. Each model contributing to the assault (or each model in the assaulting unit, since the description doesn't differentiate between contributing and non-contributing models?) makes the 4+ check to wound, followed by standard armor saves and casualty removal before making their attacks.

2. EVERY flechette discharger operates against the attackers. This seems way overpowered, but each model in the assaulting unit must take one 4+ check for each flechette discharger in the squadron. You could end up with every model in a unit making 5 such checks before they even get to take a swing!

I don't think it matters which piranhas are assaulted. Even if it did, it would just be one more reason not to take skimmers in squadrons (as if we needed more reasons).

However, considering that the primary tactic of the Tau army is fish of fury, this opens up some interesting possibilities for us Tau generals, to use piranhas as mobile terrain...


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Old 30 Jul 2007, 20:48   #18 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: flechettes in a piranha squadron

i always reckoned it would only be those in base to base contact which would avoid the problem we have in 2. that seems perfectly fine to me, though its the problem with those who are assualting from the extra two inches. i personally count them in base to base contact too, but i'm probably wrong about this.
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Old 30 Jul 2007, 21:03   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: flechettes in a piranha squadron

Got it! Figured it out. Under the vehicles rules for squadrons (BBB, p. 73) it says that "hits are allocated between the members of a squadron, as if each vehicle was a separate unit."

Problems solved! Thanks everybody, for your input. I knew there had to be a rule out there that would cover this situation, just couldn't find it.
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Old 01 Aug 2007, 08:00   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: flechettes in a piranha squadron

Quote:
Originally Posted by fonkin
... "hits are allocated between the members of a squadron, as if each vehicle was a separate unit."
Problems solved!
To me that just solves the issue of whether squadron members that aren't physically attacked can contribute with their dischargers. They can't.

Assuming a large horde of orks or gaunts assaults a squadron, then the following issues remains:
1) Assuming the horde only reach one vehicle, and then only a small portion of the horde at that. Are all members of the horde ("horders") still attacked by the flechettes, or only those that get within 2"? (I'd rule they're all attacked.)

2) Assuming the horde reaches two vehicles, #1 and #2.
Then the horders that get in range of #1 is only attacked by flechettes from #1, and same regarding #2. But what about those in the horde that lag behind? Do they receive no, one or two flechette attacks? (I'd rule they receive no more than one attack.)

3) Assuming that next turn parts of the horde move on to attack vehicle #3 in the squadron.
Then it's clear that any horders reaching #3 will get a new swarm of flechettes against them, but what about the horders still not in reach of any vehicle and thus potentially attacking all and any squadron member? (To me that's a tough one to rule...)

/Olle
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