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Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome
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Old 03 Jul 2007, 21:12   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome

So,

Kir’qath- Defender
Kir’la- Warden
Kir’shash’vre- Castellan

What, in your opinion, does the beginning of each of these words- Kir- mean along with their subsequent follow ups like qath and shash'vre?

Lar’shi- Hero
Lar’shi’vre- Protector

So here- what would Lar mean?

And finally, what do you think the break down of Ak'ula means (the word itself is the Tau word for Hammerhead)
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Old 03 Jul 2007, 21:15   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome

Well, "Shi" means victory, and a "Hero" is someone who succeeds in battle...

So, "Lar" could mean "Warrior".
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Old 03 Jul 2007, 21:22   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
Well, "Shi" means victory, and a "Hero" is someone who succeeds in battle...

So, "Lar" could mean "Warrior".
that makes sense to me

i'd say Lar is someone who people look to for guidence.
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Old 03 Jul 2007, 21:50   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome

On the subject of terminology...

The word 'vre is described as "Hero" when applied to a Shas. This presumably means that "Lar'shi" is a more general term for a hero, or is somehow a "better" hero, a more exceptional hero.

One of the hard parts here is the fact that 'vre has multiple translations based upon rank.


Anyway, Kir:

Now, Castellan means "a governor or warden of a castle or fort".

Now, I think "Kir" translates something like "Guard". Here's why, more or less:

Warden:
1 : one having care or charge of something : GUARDIAN, KEEPER
2 a : REGENT 2 b : the governor of a town, district, or fortress c : a member of the governing body of a guild
3 a : an official charged with special supervisory duties or with the enforcement of specified laws or regulations <game warden> <air raid warden> b : an official in charge of the operation of a prison c : any of various British officials having designated administrative functions <warden of the mint>
4 a : one of two ranking lay officers of an Episcopal parish b : any of various British college officials whose duties range from the administration of academic matters to the supervision of student discipline

So, a Warden could be described as someone in charge of a small installation. "Kir'la" would basically mean "Guardian", which fits. This also matches the "Castellan" pattern (the 'vre inclusion suggests importance, and a Castellan is a "Warden of a castle", which is going to be important).

So, yeah, "Guard."
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Old 04 Jul 2007, 04:00   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
So, yeah, "Guard."
"Guard" makes perfect sense to me. Going farther afield, I liked the idea of "shield."
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Old 04 Jul 2007, 22:47   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome


Kir’qath
Kir’la
Kir’shash’vre
Lar’shi
Lar’shi’vre
Ak'ula

OMG! The word that doesn't exsit! Kir'qath in my opinion is NOT a Tau word because it uses the symbol 'q' which does not appear in their alphabet.

So Before going any futher; q=k

Hence;
Kir'kath

but then thats all for another debate.

Let me guess you found these terms in the CPF artical for BFG? Well as far as I can tell;


Kir'kath
:- Have no clue what so ever
Kir’la : Something Being --->Whatever Kir means the 'la probally makes it 'comon' hence this is a basic 'ship'.
Kir’shash’vre :- Something Combat? Veteran

Because of the link to CPF I recokon Kir means battleship in the terms of a spacecraft designed for combat. Where a Kir'shash'vre is 'team leader' or command ship and kir'la refers to a basic torpedo ship. as for 'Kath' I have no clue, it has no cross-referances even as a single term.

Quote:
Lar Meaning; “Valiant” or “Courageous”
Lar'shi Composite Word; Meaning; “Valiant Victory” or “Hero” –in reference to a one off act (it seems)
Lar’shi <---Some Tau that is a hero for doing a certain action. Not a prolonged peroid of heroric deeds. This is deduced from looking at the context it was used in the fluff.


Lar’shi’vre
<--Some Tau who has had more than one 'valiant act' which would be considered heroic. Protector is a very poor translation, it would seam this term would be more of a joke than serious. Like you were in the right place at the right time more than once it seams. "A Veteran of many Heroic acts", but not a hero.

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Old 05 Jul 2007, 09:00   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome

You talk about context, Genmotty, then totally ignore how these names are applied.

The Kir'qath, Kir'la and Kir'shash'vre are all ESCORT vessels. They are not Battleships. Indeed, the Kir'la is unable to peform inter-stellar travel without another vessel with Gravitic Hooks!

If Kir did mean "Ship of War" as you imply, then why is it not applied to vessels that are clearly warships, such as the Lar'shi, Lar'shi'vre, that massive Custodian carrier?

"la" does not being "being". Gue means "being". Kir'la means "Lowest ranking Kir". As the Warden is a smaller version of the Castellan, and indeed the smallest of any ship with the Kir prefix, this does make sense.

"War ship" doesn't float. Given their translated names, and the roles they play tactically, "Shield" or "Guard" are more suitable.


As for Lar meaning "Valiant". Hmm, it is possible. However, "Lar'shi'vre" means "Protector", not "One who has had many victories". The word Hero is defined as:

1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement

Now, we know that Shi means "Victory", so how does this link in?

Well, some of these would be a great definition without "Shi" holding us back. However, I dispute your "Valiant" definition; a Hero only earns that title through prolonged success. A Shas'El who wins a brilliant victory may be given "Shi" in his name, but to earn "Lar'shi", one must succeed time and again against the odds. As the 'vre "Rank" of Lar'shi means Protector, we have to think along those lines as well. Lar'shi'vre means you are a defender of your people beyond all others. Shi'vre alone could mean "Veteran of victories", which is something else; it means you succeed a lot, but not exceptionally.

Gah, getting myself sidetracked. Right, basically a Hero is someone who is admired. Perhaps then Lar has that connotation. Something about 'glorious'. I still think it means 'Warrior', however, as at present the Tau have no way to refer to civilians and combatants of other races seperately. :
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Old 05 Jul 2007, 17:56   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
You talk about context, Genmotty, then totally ignore how these names are applied.

The Kir'qath, Kir'la and Kir'shash'vre are all ESCORT vessels. They are not Battleships. Indeed, the Kir'la is unable to perform inter-stellar travel without another vessel with Gravitic Hooks!

If Kir did mean "Ship of War" as you imply, then why is it not applied to vessels that are clearly warships, such as the Lar'shi, Lar'shi'vre, that massive Custodian carrier?

"la" does not being "being". Gue means "being". Kir'la means "Lowest ranking Kir". As the Warden is a smaller version of the Castellan, and indeed the smallest of any ship with the Kir prefix, this does make sense.
Hang on hang on hang on Wargamer a) You put words in my mouth (which I hate by the way) and b) I am using translations taken from other sources as well, not just the CPF article.

To begin with I did not use the phrase "Ship of War" as you suggested I actually used the phrase 'a spacecraft designed for combat' That does not mean it is literally an out an out combat vessel, a 'Warship' as you suggested I said, but a ship designed with combat in mind. Now correct me if I'm wrong but escort vessels are designed with combat in mind, even if they are not combat vessels themselves.

So please read what I said correctly before putting words in my mouth

Second your other 'translations'. Gue means 'Alien' La means being. Sorry I must disagree with you completely here. I cite from numerous sources such as the two Tau codexs and the Novel Firewarrior. La does indeed mean 'lowest rank', but that is a submeaning itself as technically the Saal are the lowest rank, however in a 'pre-' context.

Look I'll quote myself;
Quote:
Gue'la GW codex literal translation "Lowest Beings". Again this is false on a number of levels. To begin with 'beings' is a wrong translation to start with. The closest translation we can hazard is 'Alien', but this is not a direct translation to use the Tau position term; M'translation. I say this because the Tau have another word for peoples, but this refers to Tau. Hence we can assume Gue means peoples that are not Tau. Again to use the Tau phrase; M'sin or not peoples.

You get my drift anyway. We can't use the translation of common either because the Tau already have a term for this in the form of He. Which means 'many' to 'without number' to 'infinite'. We would expect the phrase He'gue then to represent a 'Common Beings [aliens]'

Hence 'Alien' becomes our closest meaning to use, at least without searching down a list of submeanings past the common ones.

Now we look at the term 'la. 'la is Tau term for rank and so it stands away from the main language. Knowing this we cannot assume that it means lowest. Because that would denote Saal if you think in terms of a hierarchical tree. 'la rank would in my opinion would be more akin to 'standard' where ui is 'leader' vre is 'veteran' or 'specialist' el is 'hero' or 'commander' or MP and o is high commander, Planetary Governor style status (well maybe a tad below, but then in the context of the Tau Empire as a whole...).

I think this brings us to a nice literal meaning phrase of 'Standard Aliens' wouldn't you think. Humans are as numerous as orks, but certainly not dumb or stupid, neither do they have any major features which make them different from the Tau. So if you like my logic the GW literal meaning is false with Gue'la meaning 'Standard Aliens'
Now if you want to rip this to shreds Wargamer I would like to point out that a) Please keep your post civil and b) This is an agreement of me and Lee (Who studies linguistics).

Lar'shi Directly translates as 'Valiant Victory' Lar being an 'Act of Valour' and Shi meaning 'Victory' Care to disagree?

Now in CPF Lar'shi refers to a ship class. So hence we have the Valiant Victory Class of ship.

Lar’shi’vre Directly translates as 'Valiant Victory Hero.' Now again you put words in my mouth. I did not say; "One who has had many victories" So please don't quote me saying what I didn't.

Now as you probally know Valiant has the submeaning of Heroic. So we can say Heroic Victory Hero, kind of strange, but it tells us that 'vre is being used in the context of rank. Not meaning, because we already have an adjective in the word-phrase. This is why in terms of the CPF Classification the 'vre phrase is denoting a place of high rank within the fleet. Not that the individual ship is a 'hero'. For that it and its commander would have to , like you say, "succeed time and again against the odds."

Now as we know a hero must succeed time and time again. That is why I originally translated Lar’shi’vre as "Veteran of many Heroic acts" Where Veteran means has done a number of times.

Here we have a juxtaposition. In CPF we have the Heroic Victory Class 3rd Rank and in Normal Tau speak "A Hero of many 'good' [Valiant, Coragous , Brave, Noble] acts"

Now can I point out that the Translations of Custodian, Warden, Castellan, Protector are all Human (Gothic) approximations of what the words mean. The Tau can give completely abstract names to their classes of ship, but we humans translate those Word-phrases as what the ship is like and how it acts. (The reverse of what we do with the Tau Speak when we want to discover the meaning to a phrase).

This is why I think you have the slightly wrong meanings because you are looking at the submeanings of descriptive approximations.

Ok in practice: Salut, it means Hi in french, at least thats our translation for it because its used as a quick greeting in the same way we say Hi in English. However its use in french suggests more of a quick way of saying good morning. So Although Hi has the submeaning Hallo, Hallo is not the meaning of Salut. Do you follow?

[hr]

Now as Carmsword Originally asked he wished to know what the partmeanings meant.

In fact I think Wargamer answered the meaning of Kir in responding to my post Kir means Escort. The type of ship. So Then we have;

Kir’kath: Something Escort
Kir’la: Being/Standard Escort
Kir’shash’vre: Combat 3rd Rank Escort

Kath’fannor Kor’vattra – Tau Commerce Protection Fleet

Now from the CPF article itself;

Or’es El’leath: “Custodian” Forcefully Compelling 'Knight' Spaceship

Pretty close compairson a Custodian keeps law and order through force in much the same way a knight upholds his chivalry.

Lar’shi’vre: "Protector" Heroic Victory Class 3rd Rank

Here we have a poor direct translation which suggests we humans have focused on a diffrent aspect of the ship when we named it protector. From the description given in the article it sounds like this is a stripped down variant, which may suggest the Valiant phrase as it is working with less than it should. The article also states it is the "Main Combat Strength" which suggests numbers, but with a punch. Hence Protector begins to fit the description.

Kir’shash’vre: "Castellan" Combat 3rd Rank Escort

Again we don't have a direct translation so looking at the description we find it is used as a 'guard'; "Deployed Amongst capital ships ... to guard the exposed flanks" Castellan meaning 'caretaker of the keep' sounds like we have a match. These are the 'caretakers' of the capital ships protecting them. They are important to the fleet hence the 'vre rank, but they are also designed to protect against combat, hence the phrase combat in the name. Sound good?

Kir’la: "Warden" Being/Standard Escort

Again not a direct translation. However we can easily find the link here. Warden means; "somebody whose job is to take care of or protect" and what are these basic Escorts doing?

Now to be honest I don't know how much I have rambled and confused people, but there you go, my justifications.

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Old 05 Jul 2007, 22:17   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome

did u guys know that the Tau language is based of Cantonese?
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Old 06 Jul 2007, 02:47   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some Tau Words needing definition-opinions welcome

and hebrew- anyway

I agree with the idea that the escorts are ships built solely for war- the other tau vessels all serve other functions- like colonization. So I understand that.

So I think we can agree that Kir would be some kind of escort class- then a more literal translation might be something like, what Guard- right?

I think I can also agree with the idea that Lar'shi is a class a vessel like "Victory" class Star Destroyer. That being said then, the Victory Class would be (in Tau) a Vior'la or T'au variant. So: Sa'cea Lar'shi would be a Sa'cea class Lar'shi.

If that is the case- is there any logical way to name things like "battleship" "carrier" as now we can, surmise, that Kir means Escort.
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