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Why you should always use stealth suits.
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Old 26 Jun 2007, 20:03   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Why you should always use stealth suits.

I feel that the thread against stealth suits demands the representation of a different opinion.

I never field an army of tau without at least one squad of stealth suits, preferably two, inside the list.



Here is my setup.


Team of 6 Stealth suits, Shas'vre with a fusion blaster and HW target lock and drone controller (2 shield drones attached). Every one of them is equipped with a targeting array.

Total points: 287. Yes its steep, but what do you get as the benefit? lets look.

15 BS4 burst cannon shots. If you care to math hammer it, you will probably hit more times with this then hitting with a double tap fire warrior squad. You also get one BS4 fusion blaster hit. People may complain about the short range, but fear not! that short range is your closest ally! why you ask? its called range sniping.

Range sniping is simple, reducing the number of models you can successfully kill by keeping the desired model just inside range. I have killed many special Space Marine characters this way.

Also, the BS4 advantage means all you need is a single markerlight to improve their BS to 5, making them INSANELY dangerous to anything up to T8.

The 3+ armor save, 4+ invul is a pain for the enemy too.

And now for some myth debunking.

1. Stealth suits die too easy!
This could not be further from the truth. Despite what people say, stealth fields have saved my squads many times, mostly by keeping my suits at the MAXIMUM distance from the enemy while still letting me shoot (roughly 17-24 inches away) Doing the mathhammer, its roughly a 20-40% chance in that window that they won't see you. Most units in the game don't get that luxury.
Also, the two shield drones provide two extra wounds with 4+ invul saves if the enemy decides to shoot rockets or worse at you (if they can see you at all)

When it comes to large blast weapons, all it takes is a good spread of units, and they will only get one and two or so partials. with two partials, usually only one is in, that makes two invuls that you can sacrifice drones for if they fail, and hopefully you will be able to take out the source of the template by the next turn (did i mention that any scatter-weapon rolls an extra-d6 to scatter?)

2. They are worse then crisis suits!

Apples to Oranges. Don't compare them. They hold two very different purposes on the battlefield. Just look at the stealth suits description, it describes that they work outside standard tau tactics. Crisis suits are meant to be heavy weapons platforms and command suits. Stealth suits are agents of chaos.

Personally i find them better then crisis suits, aside from Shas'o commanders. More shots, more models on the table, smaller footprints.

3. They are terrible in close combat.

Well, no tau unit aside from Kais and Farsight were meant in close combat. I would, however, like to point out, that being stealthy, the suits are the effective ninjas of the army. Ninjas never fight fair. So don't assault where its a fair fight! Things to remember:

Stealth suits have St4, which is nothing to scoff.

Stealth suits get 2 attacks EACH. On the charge this makes for 18 st4 attacks from just six models, not including drones.

Stealth suits count as being in cover when charged, so if the enemy does not have frag grenades, you go first. If they do have them, you go simo. Win-win situation.

ALL stealth suit weapons are assault, St5 or better. Remember to shoot first before assaulting the enemy!

Stealth suits make superb counter-assaulter's if your HQ has been assaulted by an unwanted enemy, they may go last, but its still 18+ attacks.

Don't forget they have a 3+ save.. thats nothing to scoff.. and drones still provide a 4+ against power weapons.

DON'T ATTACK MODELS WITH LOTS OF POWER WEAPONS! Attacking HQ choices should be left for shooting, not for beating with sticks.


Also, infiltrate and deep strike options are truly lovely things! don't forget them!
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Old 26 Jun 2007, 20:23   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Why you should always use stealth suits.

Not to really stupid up the place or anything, but I could've sworn that for ranged combat, you use the majority save, meaning that six stealths and two drones would use the stealths' save before the drones, non?
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Old 26 Jun 2007, 20:30   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why you should always use stealth suits.

except that the drones, being shield drones, have the owner's armour save. so you can take saves on the drones if desired.

the main thing to watch out for with stealthies is that, unlike other suits (NOT "SUITES") have 1 wound. if they do get hit they can die quite easily in comparison to crisis. but the whole point is that they don't get hit in the first place.
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Old 26 Jun 2007, 21:16   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Why you should always use stealth suits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogalmighty
Team of 6 Stealth suits, Shas'vre with a fusion blaster and HW target lock and drone controller (2 shield drones attached). Every one of them is equipped with a targeting array.

Total points: 287. Yes its steep, but what do you get as the benefit? lets look.
312 points. Perhaps you're using the cheaper vehicle upgrade TA? Makes rather a big difference.

Quote:
15 BS4 burst cannon shots. If you care to math hammer it, you will probably hit more times with this then hitting with a double tap fire warrior squad.
312 pt stealth team: 10 hits.
120pt FW team RFing: 12 hits.

No, not really.

Quote:
You also get one BS4 fusion blaster hit. People may complain about the short range, but fear not! that short range is your closest ally! why you ask? its called range sniping.
Range sniping is useful, but situational. Keep in mind that it negates your greatest advantage, your stealth.

Quote:
Also, the BS4 advantage means all you need is a single markerlight to improve their BS to 5, making them INSANELY dangerous to anything up to T8.
T8 with no armor save will take 2.41 wounds on average. I'm having difficulty thinking of a T8 creature with no armor save. Basically, a fex, a wraithlord, etc, would be annoyed by this, but you're not killing it.

Also, the BS4 does not make the markerlight support any more or less useful. In fact, it's pretty irrelevant.

Quote:
The 3+ armor save, 4+ invul is a pain for the enemy too.
It's nice, but you only get that until the drones are dead. Note that the drones do count for leadership issues.

Quote:
1. Stealth suits die too easy!
This could not be further from the truth. Despite what people say, stealth fields have saved my squads many times, mostly by keeping my suits at the MAXIMUM distance from the enemy while still letting me shoot (roughly 17-24 inches away) Doing the mathhammer, its roughly a 20-40% chance in that window that they won't see you. Most units in the game don't get that luxury.
If you're that far away, you can't fire fusions. The stealth field is handy, but mostly for preventing sniping from distant squads. In general, opponents wont fire distant units at the stealth team unless they have no other target.

Quote:
Also, the two shield drones provide two extra wounds with 4+ invul saves if the enemy decides to shoot rockets or worse at you (if they can see you at all)
Nice, sure, but this is a shield drone bennie, one that applies to everything that can take them, not just stealths.

Quote:
When it comes to large blast weapons, all it takes is a good spread of units, and they will only get one and two or so partials. with two partials, usually only one is in, that makes two invuls that you can sacrifice drones for if they fail, and hopefully you will be able to take out the source of the template by the next turn (did i mention that any scatter-weapon rolls an extra-d6 to scatter?)
You have a base diameter of 1". Templates are centered over a model, generally, unless they scattered. The more dispersed your troops, the more likely a scatter is to cause wounds. Anyways, any large blast template can not get less than one full and two partials if you are adhering to coherency rules, and he targets a model not on the end. Generally, it'd get substantially more, unless you are in line formation.

[quote]2. They are worse then crisis suits!

Apples to Oranges. Don't compare them.[quote]

As the only two elite choices, both with a 3+ save, ability to JsJ, and similar wargear/weaponry, it's pretty natural for folks to compare them.

Quote:
They hold two very different purposes on the battlefield. Just look at the stealth suits description, it describes that they work outside standard tau tactics. Crisis suits are meant to be heavy weapons platforms and command suits. Stealth suits are agents of chaos.
Thats all fluffy and good. From a mathhammer/tactical perspective, I really don't care.

Quote:
Personally i find them better then crisis suits, aside from Shas'o commanders. More shots, more models on the table, smaller footprints.
A firestorm suit is 50 points. They will put out more shots per point than stealths will. You have a higher model count, but a lower toughness and amount of wounds. You won't have a much lower footprint that a similarly priced crisis team(three crisis vs five stealth, for example. It's lower, but marginally).

Quote:
3. They are terrible in close combat.
They are. As are most tau. However, the shorter range and the infiltration put them closer to combat, making them more likely to have to worry about it.

Quote:
Stealth suits have St4, which is nothing to scoff.
Every generic space marine has this. Don't care.

Quote:
Stealth suits get 2 attacks EACH. On the charge this makes for 18 st4 attacks from just six models, not including drones.
If you charge, he gets to strike first(ok, simul in rare cases). I mean, unless theres something out there with lower init...oh wait, no, I don't think so.

Just for fun, when charging, this unit would, if miraculosly entirely unscathed, kill 1.5 MEQs. Um, yay?

Quote:
Stealth suits count as being in cover when charged, so if the enemy does not have frag grenades, you go first. If they do have them, you go simo. Win-win situation.
There are assault squads out there without frag grenades? I don't count getting charged with frag grenades by an assault squad as a win situation.

Quote:
ALL stealth suit weapons are assault, St5 or better. Remember to shoot first before assaulting the enemy!
If you're so eager for your suits to assault that you forget to shoot, you deserve what happens to you.
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Old 26 Jun 2007, 21:42   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Why you should always use stealth suits.


I feel that the thread against stealth suits demands the representation of a different opinion.

I never field an army of tau without at least one squad of stealth suits, preferably two, inside the list.



Here is my setup.


Team of 6 Stealth suits, Shas'vre with a fusion blaster and HW target lock and drone controller (2 shield drones attached). Every one of them is equipped with a targeting array.

Total points: 287. Yes its steep, but what do you get as the benefit? lets look.


300 odd points. thats 40 kroot. i know where im spending my money...

15 BS4 burst cannon shots. If you care to math hammer it, you will probably hit more times with this then hitting with a double tap fire warrior squad. You also get one BS4 fusion blaster hit. People may complain about the short range, but fear not! that short range is your closest ally! why you ask? its called range sniping.

so? its a short range thing. suits are open to being countered. and 15 str5 shots aint that great. against marines, 10 hit, 6 wound, and you kill 2. not even enough for an ld test.

Range sniping is simple, reducing the number of models you can successfully kill by keeping the desired model just inside range. I have killed many special Space Marine characters this way.

very tricky to do, and its once-off.

Also, the BS4 advantage means all you need is a single markerlight to improve their BS to 5, making them INSANELY dangerous to anything up to T8.

anything that tough has a 2+ or 3+ save, and typically a whole hell of wounds. wounding on 6s just isnt good enough.

The 3+ armor save, 4+ invul is a pain for the enemy too.
shield drones are a double edged sword.

And now for some myth debunking.

1. Stealth suits die too easy!
This could not be further from the truth. Despite what people say, stealth fields have saved my squads many times, mostly by keeping my suits at the MAXIMUM distance from the enemy while still letting me shoot (roughly 17-24 inches away) Doing the mathhammer, its roughly a 20-40% chance in that window that they won't see you. Most units in the game don't get that luxury.
Also, the two shield drones provide two extra wounds with 4+ invul saves if the enemy decides to shoot rockets or worse at you (if they can see you at all)


40k is a game of mobility. i dont care if you're suits are 24" away. i am zooming up my hammerheads to 12" away and fragging them. too many ways of taking care of them with fast respondy units.

When it comes to large blast weapons, all it takes is a good spread of units, and they will only get one and two or so partials. with two partials, usually only one is in, that makes two invuls that you can sacrifice drones for if they fail, and hopefully you will be able to take out the source of the template by the next turn (did i mention that any scatter-weapon rolls an extra-d6 to scatter?)

drones-ld tests. and if you are spreading out 8 models with the 2" coherency, its a big damned unit, and very easy to see, and chances are, you're infiltrating 18" away, instead of 12" away, if that. i might make your infiltration irrelevant.

2. They are worse then crisis suits!

Apples to Oranges. Don't compare them. They hold two very different purposes on the battlefield. Just look at the stealth suits description, it describes that they work outside standard tau tactics. Crisis suits are meant to be heavy weapons platforms and command suits. Stealth suits are agents of chaos.


Personally i find them better then crisis suits, aside from Shas'o commanders. More shots, more models on the table, smaller footprints.

I see stealthsuits, i see easy VPs, and nothing else. i see crisis suits, and im wary. they simply cant do anything to really threaten my force.

3. They are terrible in close combat.

Well, no tau unit aside from Kais and Farsight were meant in close combat. I would, however, like to point out, that being stealthy, the suits are the effective ninjas of the army. Ninjas never fight fair. So don't assault where its a fair fight! Things to remember:


they might hold things off for a turn, and thats about it.

Stealth suits have St4, which is nothing to scoff.

So? they hit on 4s, wound on 4s mostly, and then they face armour saves. and this is after fighting last.

Stealth suits get 2 attacks EACH. On the charge this makes for 18 st4 attacks from just six models, not including drones.
shooting the unit might cause morale check, leading to said unit legging it, leaving your suits very open and vunerable. and aside from that, you strike last. the stealthfield rules apply for being charged.

Stealth suits count as being in cover when charged, so if the enemy does not have frag grenades, you go first. If they do have them, you go simo. Win-win situation.
and what dedicated assault unit doesnt have frag grenades, or equivelants, these days? its irrelevant to be honest.

ALL stealth suit weapons are assault, St5 or better. Remember to shoot first before assaulting the enemy!
it might hurt your assault, dont forget.

Stealth suits make superb counter-assaulter's if your HQ has been assaulted by an unwanted enemy, they may go last, but its still 18+ attacks.
if its one model, fine, but what if he's charged by my 10-man seer council. thats 20 attacks wounding on 2s, going the way of the stealthsuits. tau dont do well being thrown into combat. its nothing more than free VPs to the other guy. if anything, you hold your units back, wait for your commander to die, them to consolidate into nothing, and then try and shoot them. you'll get one turn before these guys make their next charge.


Don't forget they have a 3+ save.. thats nothing to scoff.. and drones still provide a 4+ against power weapons.

so? average str in this game is 4. suits get wounded on 3s.


DON'T ATTACK MODELS WITH LOTS OF POWER WEAPONS! Attacking HQ choices should be left for shooting, not for beating with sticks.
Id say just dont attack models. shoot them.

Also, infiltrate and deep strike options are truly lovely things! don't forget them!
they're useful, but nothing more than that. kroot make better use of infiltrate.
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Old 26 Jun 2007, 22:05   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Why you should always use stealth suits.

Hmmm ... Its not a bad article... But there is "few" ways to run your stealth suits...

-------------------------------------------------->

3 man Vanilla (For everone who has sick thoughts keep them inside your skulls ;D) "Flash bang" team

Just for 90 points you will get inflitrating team in power armor equipped with JsJ move and stealth field. These boys can sting hard and if you lose them you will only... win? Yes Since 90 point isn't much but the fire that was lost on them was priceless and bought your Hammerheads another turn of Rage.

-------------------------------------------------->

3 +3(1) "Suppressor" team
120(135)

3 XV25s with 3 gun drones (and possibly 1 shield drone). They are your extra FW team that can inflitrate ^_^. Shield drone there is for obvious protection (and to get 3+ a majority armor save). They can be inflict a lot of pain. They have some amount of wounds and their purpose is to hit hard on your opponents flanks.

-------------------------------------------------->

4 or 5 man Vanilla (with Fusion) "Comando" strike team

Combination of the first and second one (do it all style). Have less bodies and wounds but enough shots. Smilar price. Much more mobile then second and bite harder then first.

-------------------------------------------------->

Again and again. Stealth suits have their purpose and they are not "terminators" they are roges that should try to draw attention away from your main forces, which are XV8s, XV88s, RailHeads, FoF teams, etc.

They are not heavy hitters they are usually just a distraction or harassers at best.
Combine them with Kroot teams and you have a solid flanking units.

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!
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Old 26 Jun 2007, 23:21   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Why you should always use stealth suits.

Alright, cut him some slack, guys!

Stealthsuits aren`t THAT bad...

I fielded them regularly, too - granted, only a 3-4 strong team without any upgrades, but I never had a reason to complain.

The point is, the Tau got a serious boost in 4th Ed. Everything got stronger (especially Firewarriors with the possibility of a FoF (new Rapid Fire Rules), whereas the Stealth suits stayed the same. So the problem is not that the Stealths got nerfed, the problem is that everything else got stronger. Last Edition, discussion was why you should ALWAYS take more Stealths if you can, since they are better than firewarriors. Now, it`s the other way around.

I no longer field Stealths; I have S5 weaponry in abundancy, what I NEED is Marinekilling firepower and the ability top bust Eldar tanks - and there is only one answer in a Tau list: Crisis.

Quote:
Team of 6 Stealth suits, Shas'vre with a fusion blaster and HW target lock and drone controller (2 shield drones attached). Every one of them is equipped with a targeting array.

Total points: 287. Yes its steep, but what do you get as the benefit? lets look.
First of all, as already mentioned, the points costs are way off.

Second, for around 300 points, I can field more than one-and-a-half Railheads. Nearly two complete teams of Deathrains. In 1.500 points, this would be 1/5th of your army. A single unit, which can`t put out more firepower than a unit of Firewarriors, which is not as fast as a FoF unit (6"-6" is NOT as fast as 12", not matter what math is telling you), can be killed in CC (unlike a FoF-unit in a Fish), etc - the list goes on and on and on.
I honestly can`t see a single reason to field said unit.

The only unit of Stealths I`d EVER field would be a small unit (3-4 strong), or, if I`m feeling lucky, 6 with 2 Gun Drones attached, nothing more, nothing less, no upgrades. AND I´d field this unit only if I`d have slots left over from my Crisis suits (which is hard, since two slots are ALWAYS dedicated to two integral Crisis teams - one Deathrain, the other TL PR. The third usually goes to a Deathrain Mon`at with AFP... >).

My opinion about Stealths? Nice. But not nice enough to leave a unit of Crisis on your shelf at home.
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Old 27 Jun 2007, 01:06   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Why you should always use stealth suits.

Ive been known to play around with a mammoth 6 strong unit w 12 gun drones. Only, however, if Im running pathfinders, and it's a 2k+ pts game, so I need to put lots of points somewhere.

Im not gonna say stealths are useless, but they are a far cry from "always use them".
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Old 27 Jun 2007, 11:54   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Why you should always use stealth suits.

yes i know i'm the one who started the anti stealth suits thread. i still use mine btw until my crisis are done being built. i run a nasty combination. a pathfinder team and another i call Slip Rain
6 stealth suits and 12 gun Drones.
30 shots hitting on average of 15.6 times.

but the combo is in the addon of 176 pts of pathfinders or my new favourite, the stealth markerlight team. hit with three or four markerlights your hit rate goes up to 25.5 on average as well as decreasing enemy ld for the pin by 1 or 2. very very effective unit. they are possibly the only reason i havent completly swaped into full CSuits because i can't match the volume and pinning in order to use markers the most effectively.
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Old 27 Jun 2007, 12:26   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why you should always use stealth suits.

The only reason I haven't swapped to pure crisis suits is I need to finish metal bases for all the buggers. The plastic ones keep breakng off in the hole. Very annoying.

The massive unit has a few big weaknesses, though. I mean, it's fun, and it's definitely something everyone should play with, but non-mathhammer disadvantages are pretty noticable. First off, it has a freaking huge footprint. This, combined with the short range, leaves you either very close, or very bunched up, pretty much artillery bait, or not shooting a lot of weapons. Also, when charged, even if bunched, odds are you're not going to get all your guys in combat. Keep in mind that if a drone controller is in the kill zone and dies, his drones immediately poof. Also, taking majority armor saves is annoying as all heck. You can mitigate some of this by taking shield drones, but that boosts the price/firepower ration significantly.

I strongly dislike the stealth ML team. It's a point hog, and in seriousness, you'd be better off with a full pathfinder team. A 3x stealth team with upgrade, ML on leader, a TA on him, and six marker drones runs you 300 pts, and thats without considering stuff like a HW TL on your leader as well.
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