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Battlesuit weapons
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Old 27 Feb 2005, 22:16   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Battlesuit weapons

Hi folks...

I'm new to the forums and returning to 40k after a few years of abstinence. I love the Tau, and I'm just starting to put together an army...so I'm sure I'll have a few questions for you all down the line.

For now, I'm curious about something...I notice alot of people create XV8 battlesuit configurations with two weapons and a support option for their 3 hard points. I would think that instead, one would take 3 weapons and Hardwire the support options, since according to the Tau codex, your hard points can be weapons and/OR support options, and the only limits to Hardwire options are no duplicates, either hard point or hard wire.

If this is the case, why not a Fusion Blaster/Plasma/Missile Pod configuration with Multi-Tracker/Target Lock hardwired?

Or maybe Fusion Blaster/Plasma Gun/Sield Generator with Multi-Tracker/Target Lock?

Etc etc...

I don't understand why folks would not take a full weapons package and leave the support to Hardwires...or is this no longer an option and I just missed the rules changes? Is it a points cost thing?

Haaalllp!

-M

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Old 27 Feb 2005, 22:21   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Battlesuit weapons

The easy answer to your question is to read what a multi-tracker does again: it allows for two weapon systems to be fired. Not three. So why have three weapons when you'll only ever fire two?

Now, what some people do, is take a twin-linked weapon and a normal weapon, taking up 3 hard points, and then using the hardwired multi-tracker to be able to use them both (but with greater accuracy). This option is very expensive and usually only used on Commanders or in armies where the number of models are so low that massive upgrades are needed to make up for the lack of volume.

Also, adding 30 points of extras (shield gen and hardwired multi-trackers) is the same cost as the suit was already. It's generally a bad idea to put more upgrades on a model than the model already costed (ie: 30+35 = ok; 30+30+30 = not ok)

Hope that clears it up for you
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Old 27 Feb 2005, 22:27   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Battlesuit weapons

How I understand it is that only squad leaders or commanders/bodyguards can take items from the armory (AKA hard-wired options). A HQ commander can take up to 3 and squad leaders/bodyguards 1. If it says in the codex it can take stuff form the armory then and only then can it have hardwired systems but that is usualy onlt when upgrading to a squad leader or a character.
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Old 27 Feb 2005, 22:52   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Battlesuit weapons

Wow...that was fast...lol.

Ok....so taking 3 Weapons as hard points is best when TL'ing 2 and using a Multi to fire them both.* Got it.* Makes sense.

I just got my Commander the other day, and I'm considering configuring him* with a Plasma Gun/Missile Pod/Shield Gen combo with hard wired Multi and Target Lock.* Since my army will be relatively small (1000 points), The Commander's going to have a more active role, mainly as a Troop backup/Protector and laying down some markerlighted missiles for the boys up front. Or maybe Plasma/Fusion/Shield Gen combo and have him hang back in case the FW's get bum rushed.

So far I have 1 squad of FW's and a Command XV8...I plan on getting the boxed set for a total of 3 troops (2 FW, 1 Kroot), 1 Fast Attack (8 Drones, 6 left over) and a 3 man Crisis Suit team.* To this I'm thinking of adding a squad of Stealths (6) and a HH with Railfun.

That should take me up to 1000 points, and hopefully give me a nice balanced army...

-M
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Old 28 Feb 2005, 00:32   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Battlesuit weapons

Just another tip: Commander suits do not need twin-linking or markerlights to land their shots. Their BS is quite good and they can shoot all on their own and hit most of the time. The Shas'el is the cheaper of the two obviously and he does just fine, fited with whatever weapons you want, hitting most of the time and with decent stats. The shas'o on the other hand hits almost every time, without all those twin-linking setups and markerlights.

Target locks are only useful if you have long range guns and have multiple models in the unit (having a single commander with a target lock does nothing and is a waste of points).

Also, suits are best when they're configured for a specific roll in the army. If you go too versitile with only 3 suits, you'll find them just eating up your points and not really making a big impact. Fire Knife combos work well for people due to the comparible range of the two weapons (missile pod and plasma rifle). So they tend to show up the most in armies with low suit counts.

In high suit count armies, you'll find more specialization. Ie: Some suits geared totally for busting vehicles (twinlinked missile pods), some for fire-support (various configs), some for total armour piercing (such as plasma rifles and fusion blasters, to maximize the amount of low ap shots you can pour into a squad of marines, or terminators, etc).

One more note, your commander is an independent character, so he rarely needs a shield generator -- he can rarely be shot at due to the rules with independent characters in 4th edition (unless he's the closest model to the enemy, he cannot be shot at, and if he's not in range for being shot at, then he's not in range to be assaulted either... which means he just hangs around all the time, laying firepower down without worrying of taking any back).
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Old 28 Feb 2005, 00:45   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Battlesuit weapons

Thanks much for the tips Mal

So a shield gen and a target lock is a waste on a Commander who's running Independent (sans unit).* Gotcha.

Any advice for the 3 man Crisis suit squad?* I was thinking of diversifying the suits so each has a particular role, but I think you're suggesting I go with a Fire Knife configuration for all 3?* Is that right?* If so, no variances in the suits limits them tactically, no?* Especially given the particular setup my army will consist of* (in my second post)

Also...last thought on a XV8 with 3 weapons...while you can only fire 2 in a round, you will be more tactically flexible, able to shoot what you need to in a given situation...no?

More to come...

-M
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Old 28 Feb 2005, 02:31   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Battlesuit weapons

Mael - I almost forgot to Welcome you to the Board Welcome!

The 3 man squad is fine as fire knife. Although it is limiting to make them all the same, it isn't a bad thing. The reason why is, if you lose a single suit who was dedicated to anti-tank support, what happens to your tank support since your other suits were more geared for something else? You shoot yourself in the foot. It's good to pick configurations that benefit each other. Fire Knife is most popular simply because they can "do it all" for you. At ranges, they hit vehicles and the range difference between the missile pods and the plasmas are only 12 inches (where as missile pods and say, fusion blasters, are a world of difference in range). Also, when confronted up close, the plasma becomes twice as effective and the missile pods still can do the same thing. So fire knife is effective in range, mid-range and close proximity. There's more tactic to that than meets the eye on paper.

Your point on the 3 weapons providing more flexibility is right. However, let's take a look at one of the reasons you will not find this very commonly:

XV8, upgraded to Shav're (to allow the taking of a hardwired system)
Missile Pod
Plasma Rifle
Fusion Blaster (I chose these 3 weapons because they're the kind of weapons that firewarriors can't have, meaning, why take more S5 and S4 weapons on suits)
Hard-wired multi-tracker (allows for the use of two of them at a time)

Now, this suit can blast away with range with his missile pods, then in mid range, he has missiles and plasma and at close range, he has fusion and plasma, making him a punisher at all ranges. The problem is, to achieve the setup, you have to spend 92 points. This is 27 points extra, compared to a standard configured fire knife suit. Is it worth while to pour 92 points into a single suit? Or would it be more wise, to have more suits, which are cheaply configured, so to spread out those points and that way if you take a single casualty you only lose a little. Example:

The suit from above (92 points); 2 missile pod shots, 1 plasma or 1 fusion.
Two normal suits, configured Fire knife (130 points); 4 missile pod shots, 2 plasma shots.

Say they get shot by a missile launcher. You lose your 92 point suit. He dies instantly and you lose all use of his abilities.
Say the two other suits are shot, you lose only one, but retain the ability to fire 2 missile pod shots, etc. For just under 40 points more.

In a game where units don't get to see all 6 of their alloted turns, always having some shooting going on (which is essential for Tau) is more important.

More cheaper suits are always more effective (and safer) than a few really tricked out suits.

Hope that helps
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Old 28 Feb 2005, 04:38   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Battlesuit weapons

Mal

Thanks again for the info...you're really helping clear things up for me.

I think a 3 weapon configuration might be the way to go for my Commander, as I intend him to be a 'lone hunter', lending support where needed and backing up my troops where I can. I agree about the Fire Knife configuration for the Crisis Squad and I'll be going that route...better to have a unit that can still do it's job even after taking some hits then not, eh?

Mind giving me some advice on Hammerhead configurations? I'm thinking Rail/Smart Missile but Seekers kinda sound cool too. Also...for all the weapon configurations that a HH can have, I assume all the pieces are included as options in the box?

btw, thanks for the welcome...glad to be here...

M
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Old 28 Feb 2005, 05:59   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Battlesuit weapons

yes, all pieces are included.. btw, read this thread > http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=4750.0 < regarding how to construct it so you can use it as either hh or devilfish with any weapon config!

Generally
Railgun is good for anti infantry & hard targets, Ion cannon is good for marines, and it is suggested that burst cannon is used as it is cheaper, is 2 weapons, and gets more shots, compared to the SMS.. unless you have points to spare or lots of terrain for your opponent to hide behind.. don't take the SMS..
*BC/SMS Clarification - SMS isn't two weapons, the two missile drones together count as one smart missile system.. the burst cannons are individual weapons, and so having the BC mounted means that you have 2 weapon systems, and 3 in total for your opponent to destroy.. compared to two.. theres old threads here around the place, just do a forum search..
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Old 28 Feb 2005, 10:05   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Battlesuit weapons

As Mal has already covered: TL on your HQ is generally not necessary. That said, my new idea is a TL MP/plasma gun/HW MT 'el. Why? With the missile pod you get a S7 long range weapon that's great for popping transports and shooting up tough stuff (ok, they get an AS but those sorts of targts are my secondardy objective). TL making the commander super reliable for this role (nearly a 90% chance of hitting). 2 St 7 shots that hit against an AV 10 vehcile give you an 88% chance of getting at least one glancing and a 75% chance of at least one penetrating hit. Those are pretty nice odds. The plasma gun is there to fill out the last hard point and add in the marine killing ability of the FK config. Sure it costs more than a FK 'el but he's more reliable and as an IC hard to kill so the point investment is worth it (compared to crisis teams which are quite easy to kill). Besides that I can afford to spend the points since I play crisis-lite (stealth teams baby.....stealth teams) O0

Three different weapons on an 'el is a bad idea IMO since you'll never get to fire all 3. I'm not a fan of FBs on a HQ because it requires him to get too close for it to be effective: Tau ICs can really abuse the IC-rules with their high mobility and thus guarantee their survival - getting into situations where you're liable to find yourself as the closest target is a bad idea. If you want to use FBs, go for it but do it on normal crisis teams and don't mix them. I like mon'at configs b/c you don't have to worry about getting raped by devastator fire, last man standing, or morale checks... when he's gone, there's nothing but a smoking crater left.

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