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Ending CC with a unit alive...
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Old 22 Jun 2007, 20:36   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Ending CC with a unit alive...

So this I encountered a few hours ago;
My squad of 9 FWs were charged by 3 Fury's of the Chaos army, he scores a couple of wounds and I remove 3 fire warriors. My casualties were the only ones engaged in combat, with the remaining unit about 3-4 inches away from his Fury's, therefore I didn't get any attacks back at him. Now what I wanted to see was that the remaining fire warriors was not engaged in CC, and could therefore rapid fire his daemons to oblivion. But what my opponent wanted to see was an immediate pile in move, resulting in my fire warriors being they daemons next meal.

Who of us was right?

I'm certain this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it.
Thank you
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Old 22 Jun 2007, 20:38   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Ending CC with a unit alive...

Your opponent is right. Once a unit is in close combat it doesn't matter whether they're actually engaged or not as per that definition (2") - no matter what happens they will still be locked in combat.

Although this doesn't benefit you I'm afraid it's how it is

~Olannon
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Old 22 Jun 2007, 20:44   #3 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Ending CC with a unit alive...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olannon
Your opponent is right. Once a unit is in close combat it doesn't matter whether they're actually engaged or not as per that definition (2") - no matter what happens they will still be locked in combat.

Although this doesn't benefit you I'm afraid it's how it is

~Olannon
Ditto on that. As you removed the figures away from those closest to it, they basically can't not strike back and thus they automatically lost combat as they can not strike back. After that you have to make you leadership (with modifiers if any) and the see how it goes. If you failed, then it it time to see how fast can you be and just hope that you roll high enough to kill everyoen (for the winner of the assault) or run away(losers).

However, even if the loser runs there are chances that the winners will just ram back into the lsoer and beat the crap out of the losers. Check the pile in move in you rulebook for more detail.
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Old 22 Jun 2007, 20:59   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Ending CC with a unit alive...

Actually quick clarification here.

The furies charge and make their attacks.
No fire warriors are left in base contact, the fire warriors make no attacks and lose combat.
The firewarriors take a morale test with any relevant modifiers.

If the Firewarriors pass..

Both sides must make pile in moves. The furies move 6" to get into base to base contact. Any fire warriors not in base to base move 6" to engage the furies.

If the Fire warriors fail...

They fall back 2d6". The furies MAY NOT make a sweeping advance to try to catch them, all they may do is make a 3" consolidate move.

So if your firewarriors fell back out of combat you could have rapid fired him.
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Old 22 Jun 2007, 22:39   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Ending CC with a unit alive...

Cheers, that made everything clear

The irony of it all, Failing a test to prevail in killing. Sensing bonding knifes here.

-Frances
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Old 22 Jun 2007, 22:46   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Ending CC with a unit alive...

Even better than bonding knives are Ethereals who let you reroll a LD check even a passed one so you can try and fail it on the second go. Then whene they rally next turn they'll get 2 tries at a successful one of those.
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Old 22 Jun 2007, 22:51   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Ending CC with a unit alive...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falstead
Actually quick clarification here.

The furies charge and make their attacks.
No fire warriors are left in base contact, the fire warriors make no attacks and lose combat.
The firewarriors take a morale test with any relevant modifiers.

If the Firewarriors pass..

Both sides must make pile in moves. The furies move 6" to get into base to base contact. Any fire warriors not in base to base move 6" to engage the furies.

If the Fire warriors fail...

They fall back 2d6". The furies MAY NOT make a sweeping advance to try to catch them, all they may do is make a 3" consolidate move.

So if your firewarriors fell back out of combat you could have rapid fired him.

He's right, I looked it up somewhere before. I've been thinking of formations that would let me benefit from this...

edit: Er by He I mean Falstead.

re edit: Hey Falstead do you know what section / page number thats in? I need to have that book marked. I have the mini-rulebook.
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Old 22 Jun 2007, 23:23   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Ending CC with a unit alive...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wired
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falstead
Actually quick clarification here.

The furies charge and make their attacks.
No fire warriors are left in base contact, the fire warriors make no attacks and lose combat.
The firewarriors take a morale test with any relevant modifiers.

If the Firewarriors pass..

Both sides must make pile in moves. The furies move 6" to get into base to base contact. Any fire warriors not in base to base move 6" to engage the furies.

If the Fire warriors fail...

They fall back 2d6". The furies MAY NOT make a sweeping advance to try to catch them, all they may do is make a 3" consolidate move.

So if your firewarriors fell back out of combat you could have rapid fired him.

He's right, I looked it up somewhere before. I've been thinking of formations that would let me benefit from this...

edit: Er by He I mean Falstead.

re edit: Hey Falstead do you know what section / page number thats in? I need to have that book marked. I have the mini-rulebook.

read page 43 to 49 until it is seared into your brain. my friends and i were playing the wrong rules too, and being Tau (against Necrons, Tyranids and Space Marines) I got boned since they're mostly immune to morale effects.

In a CC, you always want to NOT have anyone remaining in base contact at the end, since you've had men die, hopefully you'll flub your already lowered morale and retreat 2d6", whereas he may only consolidate 3", meaning a wonderful rapid-fire-fest for you next round.

however, should you leave some in base contact, and win, you're fine, but also stuck in CC. should you loose however, you then need to make a sweeping advance, which is like initiative in D&D, to determine who goes first. FW's are slow as heck, so you do NOT want this to happen, since they'll usually be caught and scattered/killed/broken and be removed from the game.

you can usually rely on CC to whittle you down enough to cause you to break morale and flee battle, and the very next round, as long as you have at least 50% of the squad (or a bonding knife), you can attempt to get back in line, with normal leadership roll (to my knowledge) so that shas'ui just came in useful after all.
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Old 22 Jun 2007, 23:33   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Ending CC with a unit alive...

Speaking of formations that take advantage of this, check out a troop formation called "The Brace"

Basically it looks like this

o
o
ooooo
ooooo

Here we see a full unit of 12 FW in the brace formation. The 2 o's out front have maximum 2" coherency between them.

Since the opponent has to charge the closest model from the unit he assaults, then that front guy is going to be the only one in base to base contact, and the guy right behind him is going to be the only model within 2" of him and therefore they will be the only 2 models in CC.

So simply remove them from combat when they die and you will then have no one in base to base and will hopefully fail your morale check, rally next turn then rapid fire.
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Old 23 Jun 2007, 00:42   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Ending CC with a unit alive...

Hmmm, neat concept.
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