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Land Speeders vs. Piranhas
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Old 25 May 2007, 06:37   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Land Speeders vs. Piranhas

I was reading some tau tactia and it said that if you equip your piranha with a fusion blaster then it's the same points cost as a land speeder with a multi-melta and it has a better front AV of 11.

The problem is that the piranha has lower BS, shorter range. The other disadvantage is that is it also open topped. My rulebook reads as follows;

Quote:
Warhammer 40k mini rulebook pg.68:Whenever a damage roll(glancing or penetrating) is made against an open-topped vehicle, add 1 to the damage result.
This basically negates the extra AV anyway.

So the question is, is an extra point of AV an equal balance to open-topped, worse BS and shorter range?

Any thoughts?
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Old 25 May 2007, 06:42   #2 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Land Speeders v Piranhas

It isn't the AP roll that you add the +1 to. It is the result on the damage table. So an open-topped vehicle with an 11 facing is still immune to Strength 4 fire. But if the enemy penetrates it, they get to add +1 to the roll to find out what happens to it.
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Old 25 May 2007, 08:40   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Land Speeders vs. Piranhas

Depends on what you're doing with it. I took some time off from 40K (*gasp*, the horror!) and I'm probably not going to be into it as much as I was before. But when I do have the time, I'm experimenting to see how the Piranhas fit my style. I prefer a mechanized approach to Tau with a lot of move and shoot. The biggest hinderances I've run across are as follows:

- Broadsides can't move and shoot (or they couldn't until Adv. Stabilisation. Even with it, they're kinda limited)

- A railgun equipped hammerhead draws fire from every missile launcher/lascannon/whatever on the board. Even moving full out and taking advantage of skimmer rules, I've a hard time making mine live more than 2 turns against most of the SMurfs I play.

So I'm looking at using Piranhas with FB as vehicle killers. Add the FB, Decoy, and Targetting array and they come out at around the same cost as a Broadside. They move faster, they have drones (pinning possibilities are pretty rare against SM but the eldar seem to take it fairly well), and they can't be pinned down in Assault (always a plus considering our weakness to that particularly abhorent method of combat) I've got a 750 pt game on Monday. I'll post the battle rep and let you know how it fares.

There's also the troop mowage capacity. Leave the FB off, keep the BC, put five in with just Decoys, and set them into the flank of a Guard army or the like. 25 shots coming from a unit that their lasguns can't touch. Just stay away from the heavies (well, try to at least. We all know how well plans work on the table.)

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Old 26 May 2007, 15:18   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Land Speeders vs. Piranhas

Hey,

I don't know much about landspeeders (except at how to kill them), but I know that with piranhas, they can make a really big difference for a mech list. The key strength of of mech tau is the ability to ignore most basic weapons fire, while overwhelming heavy weapons with the sheer number of hard targets. Just like Sightline said, as tough as hammerheads are, the fact is, they will still go down if faced with too much fire. The same is true with devilfish. However, even though the piranha is open-topped, the AV11 in the front means that it will still require the attention of heavy weapons to take down. Because of this, a couple piranhas can quite dramatically improve the survival of your other skimmers, while also posing a real, albeit annoying threat either the opponent's vehicles (w. FB) or infantry (w. BC). They also help a lot with skimmer walls and such...

Piranhas are definately great units. How they stack up against Landspeeders though would have to depend on what kind of things LS do for SMs, which, unfortunately, I'm not too knowledgable with.
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Old 26 May 2007, 23:31   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Land Speeders vs. Piranhas

People tend to forget about the drones. These things are pretty amazing.

1) They add firepower. 2 extra pulse shots are always welcome.

2) They can assault and tie up units.

3) They can force piority checks if needed. It will protect your piranha or other units if needed.
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Old 27 May 2007, 02:52   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Land Speeders vs. Piranhas

Personaly I think one on one a LS would destroy a Piranha. I only say this because i've seen all the weapons he can load onto that thing and its ridiculous.
However Piranhas have their own strengths that can also dramatically change a game. The exta armor on the piranha is probably the thing that makes them significantly better than LS in that they cant be shot down by most basic troopers.
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Old 27 May 2007, 03:01   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Land Speeders vs. Piranhas

Landspeeders also can't travel in packs of five then drop off ten free gun drones to run around and wreck havoc in the enemy's lines. Piranhas also have decoy launchers which help some with survivability. They also can have seekers so when they get behind enemy lines pathfinders can mark up juicy targets and hit them from behind.
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Old 27 May 2007, 03:06   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Land Speeders vs. Piranhas

Crisis, correct me if Im wrong, but don't DA take land speeders in squadrons of up to five? Regardless, the little buggers are hateful even in three packs.

I assure you, decoy launchers in no way compensate for them being open topped. It helps, but in all seriousness, any 3+ on a glance makes your piranha pretty irrelevant or dead, and even a 2 is pretty annoying., especially in a squadron.

Land Speeders get options as well. I personally find the assault cannon ones rather effective, and the ability to deep strike is a nice compensation for drones.
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Old 27 May 2007, 06:35   #9 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Land Speeders vs. Piranhas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Crisis, correct me if Im wrong, but don't DA take land speeders in squadrons of up to five? Regardless, the little buggers are hateful even in three packs.
Indeed they can. Their range and BS are better, as is their AP. They are 5 points more expensive than a Piranha with Burst Cannons, and they have three shots at BS4 instead of 3 at BS3 and 2 at BS 3.5. Out of the Squadron, one can take a Typhoon Missile Launcher for a few points and one can take a Multi-melta for free. And one more can take an Assault Cannon or Heavy Flamer.

Honestly, except for the subtle strategic opportunities offered by the drones and Seeker Missiles, Ravenwing Support Squadrons have Piranha Squadrons beat in most categories. They are slightly more vulnerable to low-strength fire, but they aren't open-topped. And with the current rules, one crashed Piranha or one penetrating hit will force the whole lot of them to bail out, often killing most of them.

The Land Speeder Tornado will make mincemeat out of a Piranha, but it is also almost twice as expensive. So comparing the Piranha to the stock Land Speeder is probably more appropriate.
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Old 27 May 2007, 14:33   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Land Speeders vs. Piranhas

Also playing a squad of 5 piranhas could get a little costly. even without upgrades. Yea they have a lot of capabilities but im not sure that they would be worth their points IMO. Personally I would take a smaller group of piranhas with fusion blasters so they can still pack a punch and dont become major targets.
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