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Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC
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Old 15 May 2007, 02:47   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC

Okay, even though I've been playing a while, I'm still learning a lot. This post regards a question I have about assaults (close combat) and "character units". I'd just like to know how other people play it. I can't find my rule book helpful enough.

CRITICAL QUESTION: WHERE CAN I ALLOCATE WOUNDS???

Scenario 1: 3 crisis suits, 1 of which has the leader upgrade.
My understanding is that in this case, the group fights as a unit and in close combat they are all one mass (albeit possibly making their own attacks at different initiatives). When being assaulted, my enemy attacks them all as one unit and the wounds he does I can choose to allocate as I wish between all three models (so, the leader can fall last if I wish). I feel pretty confident about this.

Scenario 2: 3 crisis suits that have been "joined" by an independent character commander shas'el.
My understanding is that in this case, the group is counted as 2 separate units in close combat for purposes of allocating attacks. When being assaulted, my enemy must specifically declare if his models are attacking my shas'el OR my 3 man crisis unit. Furthermore, if he chooses to ignore the crisis and place attacks against the Shas'el, I have to take the wounds on the shas'el, I can't choose to have a crisis die to protect his commander. I feel pretty confident about this.

Scenario 3: Shas'el commander with 2 dedicated bodyguard suits.
Now it's getting sketchy for me. These models form a "unit" which the commander MAY NOT leave. In fact, he is not considered an "independent character" so long as he is in this unit. So when close combat happens, is it like scenario 1 or 2 above? Do all 3 fight as one unit, or is the shas'el on his own? I'm not confident about this.

Scenario 4: Shas'el commander with 2 shield drones joins a unit of 3 crisis.
On the one hand, someone might say this is getting ridiculous, but on the other, this is actually a very likely scenario... So if I'm right about scenario #2, we treat the shas'el and the crisis separately for allocating hits in combat. My question is what about the shield drones? Are they part of the unit or part of the commander? If the commander takes a hit, can I allocate it to his drone? If a crisis takes a hit, can I allocate it to the commander's drone? This one spins my noggin' too much to think about.

There are other permutations of course, but answering these 4 should set me straight I think. I'm trying to avoid the realization that once we get into CC with our commanders they are totally FUBAR because the hits allocated to them can't be intercepted by anything else - bodyguards, drones, nothing at all. Seems much better if bodyguards or shield drones could actually, you know, offer protection.

I am eager for you to share the greater good with me! Please chime in on how you handle this in your gaming groups!

-Aun'Shasta
Livin' in the fish...
cause close combat is scary!
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Old 15 May 2007, 04:09   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunshasta
Scenario 1: 3 crisis suits, 1 of which has the leader upgrade.
My understanding is that in this case, the group fights as a unit and in close combat they are all one mass (albeit possibly making their own attacks at different initiatives). When being assaulted, my enemy attacks them all as one unit and the wounds he does I can choose to allocate as I wish between all three models (so, the leader can fall last if I wish). I feel pretty confident about this.
You are correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunshasta
Scenario 2: 3 crisis suits that have been "joined" by an independent character commander shas'el.
My understanding is that in this case, the group is counted as 2 separate units in close combat for purposes of allocating attacks. When being assaulted, my enemy must specifically declare if his models are attacking my shas'el OR my 3 man crisis unit. Furthermore, if he chooses to ignore the crisis and place attacks against the Shas'el, I have to take the wounds on the shas'el, I can't choose to have a crisis die to protect his commander. I feel pretty confident about this.
You are correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunshasta
Scenario 3: Shas'el commander with 2 dedicated bodyguard suits.
Now it's getting sketchy for me. These models form a "unit" which the commander MAY NOT leave. In fact, he is not considered an "independent character" so long as he is in this unit. So when close combat happens, is it like scenario 1 or 2 above? Do all 3 fight as one unit, or is the shas'el on his own? I'm not confident about this.
Incorrect, this situations would be the same as #2. The Shas'el is an IC and is treated differently in hth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunshasta
Scenario 4: Shas'el commander with 2 shield drones joins a unit of 3 crisis.
On the one hand, someone might say this is getting ridiculous, but on the other, this is actually a very likely scenario... So if I'm right about scenario #2, we treat the shas'el and the crisis separately for allocating hits in combat. My question is what about the shield drones? Are they part of the unit or part of the commander? If the commander takes a hit, can I allocate it to his drone? If a crisis takes a hit, can I allocate it to the commander's drone? This one spins my noggin' too much to think about.
Drones are uniqe in that they stick with the IC even in hth, this is an exception to the normal rules (look in the Tau FAQ). Drones, and only drones, are the only way to you can protect a Tau IC from being picking out individually in hth. (Aun'Va and Shadowsun are a little different too)


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Old 15 May 2007, 09:35   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC



Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunshasta
Drones are uniqe in that they stick with the IC even in hth, this is an exception to the normal rules (look in the Tau FAQ). Drones, and only drones, are the only way to you can protect a Tau IC from being picking out individually in hth. (Aun'Va and Shadowsun are a little different too)
Errrrr no, read the Tau drone codex entry, any model that takes controlled drones forms a unit.
Then read the rules for an independent character in an assault.

The commander forms a unit when it takes controlled drones.

All the FAQ says is the commander and drones 'count' a separate unit, and thats important because separate unit the commander and drones count as, still follows the rules for a unit with an IC (where does it say they don't?).

An independent character always fights his own combats, even models like daemon hunter inquisitors follow the rules but they get the ability to palm of wounds to acolytes, but they still 'fight' their own CC.

If a commander with drones was unattached to any other unit and got caught in CC it would still fight as a unit but the commander and drones fight separate combats.

Any Tau independent character that forms or joins a unit fights as a separate unit in close combat (even with a bodyguard).

So

The commander fights his own combat.

The drones fight there own combat.

The commander can only fight if he is in base to base with an opposing model, he can hit any model within 2" of the model in B2B.

The commander can only be hit and wounded by any model in B2B or within 2" of the model in B2B with it.

If an opposing model is in B2B with the the commander and the drone it has to allocate its attacks, it can only wound the model it allocated its attacks to.

The commander cannot be allocated wounds inflicted on a drone and vice versa.

The commander re-joins the drones before any moral tests are rolled, the unit can use the commanders LDS/INT.

Drones are basically useless for protecting any Tau IC in an assault.



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Old 15 May 2007, 15:46   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC

Quote:
Originally Posted by rikimaru
All the FAQ says is the commander and drones 'count' a separate unit, and thats important because separate unit the commander and drones count as, still follows the rules for a unit with an IC (where does it say they don't?).
"In combat, the character (and his drones) count as a separate unit"
"except close combat, when he (and his drones) count as a separate unit."

You see that? UNIT, singular, not plural, meaning one, not two, not more. The IC and Drones count as one unit in cc. It overrides the regular rules for IC's in cc and creates an exception to the normal rules of IC's in cc, doing otherwise is breaking the rules/cheating.

I don't care how daemon hunter inquisitors, or other IC's fight because they don't have an FAQ saying that the IC and extra models (whatever they may be) count as one unit even in close combat. And trying to use the very rules it creates an exception to to invalidate it is silly to say the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rikimaru
The commander fights his own combat.

The drones fight there own combat.
And that is by far the silliest RAW argument I've seen. It is quite clear what the intent of the Tau FAQ was. And despite people trying to mangle it with rules lawyering the FAQ is quite clear on how it is to be applied. WTF is accomplished by making drones their own unit in cc? It does nothing if not make them worse, making the FAQ question complealty meaningless. Or do you think that question was put thier just to tell us that Drones fight on thier own? Because that's the only thing, by your reading, that it does.
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Old 16 May 2007, 13:06   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Orange
Quote:
Originally Posted by rikimaru
All the FAQ says is the commander and drones 'count' a separate unit, and thats important because separate unit the commander and drones count as, still follows the rules for a unit with an IC (where does it say they don't?).
"In combat, the character (and his drones) count as a separate unit"
"except close combat, when he (and his drones) count as a separate unit."
Yeah and you just happen to dismiss the codex entry for controlled drones, any model with controlled drones form a unit, even IC's, any unit with an IC has to follow the rules for IC's and an attached unit in combat, just show me where it says a commander and drones are excluded from this rule.
Any XV8 with controlled drones form a unit, plural not singular how can multiple models form a one model unit, they don't, units with controlled drones follow rules for 25% losses same as any other unit, to suffer 25% losses of a unit it has to be multiple models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Orange link
You see that? UNIT, singular, not plural, meaning one, not two, not more. The IC and Drones count as one unit in cc. It overrides the regular rules for IC's in cc and creates an exception to the normal rules of IC's in cc, doing otherwise is breaking the rules/cheating.
Where does it say that a Tau commander is treated any differently in CC than any other IC, it does not.

Lets get something clear here, any IC that joins a unit forms a unit of multiple models, each model has its own stats, they form a unit, just the same as 9 Marines form a unit (I think your struggling with the definition of unit), the IC and other models (drones for instance) form a unit until it fights in an assault, the IC then fights is own combat as a separate unit, this is indisputable fact.

So it does not matter if the commander has drones, has a bodyguard, joins a FW squad or stealth squad, when the UNIT gets into an assault the IC commander always fights his own combat, stop calling me a cheater and show me where it says a Tau commander is treated differently in CC to any other IC in a unit in combat.

By the way it does not say 1 unit it says quote 'a separate unit', and that separate unit follows all the rules for a unit with an IC in combat, that makes a massive difference because it is only referring to a separate unit, it does not say the drones and the commander are treated as one unit in CC, it simply states they form a separate unit and any unit with an IC has to follow the rules on page 51, show me differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Orange link

And that is by far the silliest RAW argument I've seen. It is quite clear what the intent of the Tau FAQ was. And despite people trying to mangle it with rules lawyering the FAQ is quite clear on how it is to be applied. WTF is accomplished by making drones their own unit in cc? It does nothing if not make them worse, making the FAQ question complealty meaningless. Or do you think that question was put thier just to tell us that Drones fight on thier own? Because that's the only thing, by your reading, that it does.
Ok fella how does it work then, how exactly does the combat work, are drones independent characters then because if they form a singular unit then they have to be IC, 'no they don't' you say well yes they must and I will prove it to you.

Let me point you to page 50 paragraph 'Characters in battle' sub paragraph 2 'Independent characters' first line paraphrased reads 'Independent characters are shown as individual models and they fight as units in their own right' please note the phrases individual models, and fights as a unit.
Now that means the IC is a unit comprised of an individual model, now please tell me how a commander and 1 or 2 drones can ever count as an individual model, how can a commander with drones fight as an individual model in CC?, They can't its an impossibility because drones are individual models.

So to fight as a unit the drones and commander have count as a single individual model and because the IC status is there for the unit (it cannot be lost) and IC's fight as individual model units, so the drones have to be IC, drones cannot be IC ever.

This is why it says in the Tau codex that a model with controlled drones forms a unit, the commander has formed a unit, a unit formed of multiple models.

Answer me a question, how does a commander with drones (no bodyguard) fight when caught in an assault (no other models just the commander and drones), now the commander is an independent character so he has to fight his own CC, the drones have to fight their own CC, how does this change when the commander and drones fight as a separate unit to his bodyguards? it doesn't the commander is still an IC in a unit (the unit formed with his drones)

Describe exactly how this works if the drones and IC are 1 unit, how do you allocate hits and wounds given the fact that an IC HAS to be treated as an individual model, how are the drones treated, how does the attacking unit allocate hits?

Please explain exactly how you dismiss the fact that an independent character is only ever an individual model unit?
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Old 16 May 2007, 13:39   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC

Commander and his drones fight together as though they were a unit (this UNIT may be targeted separately from whatever squad the commander may be attached to). For example:

Bodyguard (and any drones they may possess) fight together. The commander, if he had no drones, could be picked out individually. If he DOES posess drones, then the UNIT that he forms with his drones may be targeted (he may still allocate wounds to the drones, and they may route attacks through one another).

Note that wounds are still allocated in the normal manner (if the unit takes three powerfist wounds, unless the comander has his own shield generator he is instantly killed, and his drones go with him.) The bodyguard unit may not route attacks through the commander or his drones, however, and must maintain their OWN base contact in order to fight.

These same rules apply if the commander joins another unit. As well, shooting the unit follows the usual rules (The commander may be targeted with range weaponry, as he no longer is on his own), and the unit (if caught) is required to take casualty checks when a drone dies.


Other than that, go to the GW site and read the FAQ.
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Old 16 May 2007, 13:51   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian_Alpha
(he may still allocate wounds to the drones, and they may route attacks through one another).

Sorry but where does it say anywhere that a commander can allocate wounds to a drone?

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Old 17 May 2007, 00:03   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC

Following the general rules stating that you must remove whole models where possible, and the fact that they may have the same armor save courtesy of the Close Protection rules if he takes shield drones, ANd that the commander forms a unique unit when accompanied by drones, a wound applied to such a unit may be put on the drone instead of the commander.

Note that this only appies with shield drones. Gun/marker drones have a different armor save, so cannot be routed to in his manner.
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Old 17 May 2007, 00:58   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC

I have to agree with drone guarding the IC. It's somewhat fuzzy, but the intent and spirit of these rules was to make shield drones useful in CC for an IC.

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Old 17 May 2007, 06:00   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Confusion regarding mixed "character" units in CC

Quote:
Originally Posted by rikimaru
Yeah and you just happen to dismiss the codex entry for controlled drones, any model with controlled drones form a unit, even IC's, any unit with an IC has to follow the rules for IC's and an attached unit in combat, just show me where it says a commander and drones are excluded from this rule.
I was quoting directly from the FAQ, and what does the regular codex entry have to do with anything? How did I dismiss the fact that drones form units with the models carrying the drone controller? Iím not dismissing the fact, Iím pointing out the fact that the FAQ creates an exception to the normal rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rikimaru
Any XV8 with controlled drones form a unit, plural not singular how can multiple models form a one model unit, they don't, units with controlled drones follow rules for 25% losses same as any other unit, to suffer 25% losses of a unit it has to be multiple models.
One model unit? What are you talking about? No one said anything about one model units. A unit can consist of several models, I never said anything contrary to this.
All I was saying is this:
Unit = Singular, i.e. one unit.
Units = Plural, i.e. many units.
The FAQ uses the word unit, not units.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rikimaru
the IC and other models (drones for instance) form a unit until it fights in an assault, the IC then fights is own combat as a separate unit, this is indisputable fact.
Yes for normal ICís thatís how itís done. But the Tau FAQ makes an exception to this and states that Tau ICís with their drones fight as one unit in hth. The FAQ isnít telling us that Drones and ICís form a unit, we already know that. Itís telling us that they form one unit in hth, thatís the new part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rikimaru
By the way it does not say 1 unit it says quote 'a separate unit', and that separate unit follows all the rules for a unit with an IC in combat, that makes a massive difference because it is only referring to a separate unit, it does not say the drones and the commander are treated as one unit in CC, it simply states they form a separate unit and any unit with an IC has to follow the rules on page 51, show me differently.
AgainÖ
Unit = Singular, i.e. one unit.
Units = Plural, i.e. many units.
This is basic English, why canít you get past that fact? If the IC was supposed to be singled out in hth, the FAQ would have to say units, not unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rikimaru
Ok fella how does it work then, how exactly does the combat work, are drones independent characters then because if they form a singular unit then they have to be IC, 'no they don't' you say well yes they must and I will prove it to you.
Iím saying that the drones and IC are treated as one unit in hth, with or without bodyguards. I was giving you an example of the consequences of going by the interpretation that despite the drones and IC fighting as their own unit in hth, the IC is still on his own.

I.E. what would happen to a ShasíO + Drones + Bodyguard in hth. The IC and drones fight as a separate unit, so the drones cannot fight with the Bodyguard, correct? If the IC himself is individually targeted the drones are now separated from the bodyguard and the IC. How is that supposed to work? Are you telling me that my ShasíO and retinue suddenly become 3 different units in close combat? And that not only can my shield drones not protect the model they were bought for, but they can be absolutely ignored in combat just because they were attached to an IC? i.e. my opponent can chose to target the bodyguard and the IC completely bypassing the shield drones in combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rikimaru
Now that means the IC is a unit comprised of an individual model, now please tell me how a commander and 1 or 2 drones can ever count as an individual model, how can a commander with drones fight as an individual model in CC?, They can't its an impossibility because drones are individual models.
These rules are irrelevant as the Tau FAQ creates an exception to them. Youíre not supposed to use the 2 in conjunction. As I said before trying to use the rules to contradict an exception to those very rules is just silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rikimaru
Please explain exactly how you dismiss the fact that an independent character is only ever an individual model unit?
Quite simple, the Tau FAQ overrides the BGB, and Tau ICís are not treated as a single model, its as simple as that. The Tau FAQ and BGB are in clear contradiction of each, they donít work together, and youíre not supposed to try to get the two rules to work together. So stop trying to treat them as rules that work together.
The BGB says
ďCharacters are treated as a separate unit when resolving close combatsĒ
The FAQ says
ďThe character (and his drones) are members of the unit in all respects, except close combat, when he (and his drones) count as a separate unitĒ

You see the parallel wording there? Normally an IC is treated as a separate unit in cc, Tau ICís (and their drones) are treated as a separate unit in cc.

If you understand it so well, please explain to me what is the point of that Q&A in the Tau FAQ? What is it telling us that we supposedly donít already know from the codex and BGB? Because by your interpretation, apparently itís presenting no new material, and GW never FAQís something that is that clear. Before this FAQ I though Tau ICís were targetable in hth, I had no doubt about it as thier was nothing pointing to the idea that drones worked that way with IC's in hth. This Q&A, IMO, is pointing out/clarifying that Tau ICís benefit from the protection of their drones, even in close combat. It is pointnig out the intent of the designers which was not apparent in the codex.

Take a good look at the question asked, and take a good look at the amount written to explain the answer.
ďdo Tau characters with a retinue always count as independent characters for the purposes of close combatÖĒ

If indeed you are right, and Tau ICís are always treated as normal ICís in close combat, why did they not just say yes? In fact why did they not say Yes at all? One simple word would have answered the question if your interpretation is correct, but instead they went into quite a long explanation, and ever time they talked about they character they added ď(and his drone)Ē linking the drones to commander as if they were one. Their are many examples of questions answered with a short sentence, their are even some answered with one word. Why is this different?

How do I see it working out on the table top? Simple
Shasío/el with drones: Treated as one unit in hth (just like a regular crisis suit with drones).
Shasío/el with drones and bodyguard/attached unit: Treated as a multiple combat, the IC and drones are one unit, and the bodyguard/attached unit is the other unit.
Ethereal with drones and honorguard/attached unit: Treated as a multiple combat, the IC and drones are one unit, and the bodyguard/attached unit is the other unit.
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