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How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines
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Old 20 Feb 2005, 13:12   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines

We all know marines are a huge problem for the Tau empire. This is caused by these facts:

-armour: even standard foot soldiers enjoy a 3+ safe

-cc skills: marines shred Tau up close

-heavy weapons: the heavy weapons have at least AP3, and lots of blasts(missile launchers), meaning u can`t save about 70% of the time

-leadership: marines never flee

-FoF won`t work, marines tear up 12 armour, and blast groups of FW

-the come and get me tactic: the really dangerous weapons have 36 and higher inch range, meaning Tau has to come closer to be able to lay down firepower. The marines wait till u come closer, all the while thinning your ranks and eliminating key units, then they start moving, and engage u in close combat(the havoc's and devastators remain stationary). This tactic can utterly destroy any Tau army.

Now, how do we win?

Marines are advantageous to Tau, but they can be beat, and there are several ingredients to brew up victory:

-the non-heavy weapons are weak. Tau outranges and overpowers them.

-we now posses rail rifles, which excel at killing marines

-we now posses rail rifles, which always pin when wounding (or am i mistaken)

-seeker missiles: though risky, if successful a seeker missile can take down the marines` heavy support

-mobile battlesuits: these are THE best weapon against the marines. B very careful not to lose these. Unlike the rest of your army, the suits can safely come near a squad of marines, becuz of the simple fact that they can jump back during the assault phase. Plasma rifles are a must. they negate saves, and u roll 2+ for wounds. But, even burst cannons can tear up marines. But your tactics have to differ slightly: go for quantity, not quality with BC`s

-against marines you might want to use kroot, otherwise I wouldn't`t, but against marines, they can be valuable if u can keep them in cover, and in range. a kroot rifle is not powerful, but odds are the opponent will fail some of his saves. and if he comes close, attack!!! kroot rifles count as additional cc weapons!

-smart missiles: usually not too devastating, but at least u can fire while hiding from lascannon fire(don`t rely on this tactic unless you`re using the new XV81 suit, which features smart missiles)
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Old 20 Feb 2005, 14:36   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines

thats a very useful tactia, well done ;D

myself, i manage to destory tanks without the use of seeker missiles, a 3 lascannon toting pred is dangerous but a railgun HH IS better and more survivable and mobile enough to get SM tanks downed quickly.

the one thing tau dont like is the heavy bolter annihilater, there is no easy tactuic to preventing this as many units can hold a heavy bolter. I suggest the safe protection from Hbolter fire inside devilfihses. You say FoF is useless but i dont see why a double stike isnt going to do a lot of damage, especially when combined with twin linked plasma fire from 12" (a must versus power armoured opponents IMO with not too many tanks)

Also the railrifle forces a pinning TEST, not auto pinning :P, i find a railrifle squad usually a bit too pricy but i agree with you thety are amzing, especially when combined with amrkelgihts and shooting into bunkers/fortified buildings etc. ;D
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Old 20 Feb 2005, 15:24   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines

There are a few things that these armies posses that are problems for Tau.

Chaos:

-Defiler (ordinance indirect fire)
-Heavy Bolters (lots of them, cheaper than garbage)
-Dreadnoughts with Mutated Hull (13 armour is tough, even for missile pods, relies on Railguns to down them effectively)
-Possible T5 units with 3+ saves (nightmares, 72 firewarrior shots can barely take down 6 or 7 of these guys)
-Combat gods (marines don't hold a candle to Chaos in combat)
-Fast moving daemonic units (be it the common Prince, Greater Daemon, or Furies, all of which will cause problems)
-Fast moving assault units (Raptors are worse than Assault Marines, simply because they cause -2 leadership checks after the beat down, Tau run faster at Ld6)
-Fearless, or very close to it (with re-rollable leaderships with a base of Ld9, going to 10 real quick)

Marines:

-Whirlwind (cheap, utterly effective against Tau, with barrage ordinance, it's like a template heavy bolter)
-Heavy Bolters (again, lots of them)
-They Shall Know No Fear (They can fall back, but they auto-regroup and all)
-High Leadership (If a Master is on the board, all marines have Ld10 for all tests, poor Tau)
-Terminators that can -always- deepstrike (this is how to disrupt any Tau army enough to shift the game favor)
-Librarians (The new daemon princes, but better yet, he may always deepstrike with a retinue and use Fear of the Darkness, causing -2 moral checks to everyone around)
-Assault Marines (They can do quite a bit of nasty, and deepstriking can be annoying if they come in large packs)

Basically Tau has the cure for both of them though: Railguns and Plasma Rifles. Regardless of the amount of armour that my opponent will field, I generally always take the twin-linked plasma with target locks against the two enemies. Pull out loads of railguns to deal with any armour that they have. Devilfish are a necessity due to their indirect fire capabilities which can smash an entire Tau troop in a single template and pin them down with a -1 modifier. I generally take a load of suits, rigged full of the plasma, and I just sweep from one side to the other, all together to focus my fire. No squads of Chaos/Marines stand up to 9 suits with twinlinked plasma, from 24 inches away, definitely not from rapidfire range. Even the T5 cronies are burned down. Gundrones become very useful in these situations, to force combats on shooting squads, such as heavy bolter squads, so that the suits can perform without taking too much fire from them. Drones are expendable afterall. The railguns of course are dedicated to eliminating anything with an armour value and a gun that can touch my suits. Gundrones also are used for dropping in on the ordinance fellows that hide, as they can pop a whirlwind and they can go to combat with defilers, to keep them busy for a turn, while a devilfish or hammerhead gets there in time to punish them.

The real problem is, if these nasty weapons of Tau destruction are fielded in small games, where Chaos & Marines can field them. Tau is interesting in that their HQ and troops that are required cannot be buffed like crazy, as marines and chaos can. So in the small games, Tau suffers from lack of serious fire support and their key cure units (such as suits and hammerheads). In these kinds of games, it comes down to the Tau's ability to just focus fire and use Rate of Fire to eliminate powerarmour with loads of firewarriors and Kroot as counter units. Gundrones are cheap and useful for harassment or tank elimination. The humble devilfish is the life boat of course.

In small games, single suit squads of XV8's with dedicated rolls and a twin-linked weapon to suit, is a wise option. However, because suits have that average leadership of 8, long range suit use for targets can be tricky as they very commonly fail the target priority check and are forced to waste their precious shots on the closet squad (or closet vehicle/monstrous creature). In these small games, these suits need every shot to count, so they really must actively focus on what the closest unit will be, to eliminate it, and move from there.

In 3rd/Trial, tau could start from the Back to the Front, of the enemy lines. This was common as the rear lines were the firing lines of most armies and the front lines were the assault lines. Now in 4th, even without screening, Tau still cannot effectively do the same, and are routinely forced to deal with the front lines with everything except their vehicles. For that reason, the hammerhead has become so important to dealing with non-vehicle rear line threats (such as devastator, or havoc teams). They're small groups, so a submunition will do the trick over at turn or two, to at least dampen their fire output, or just cripple them if lucky. Then they can be a lesser priority and go back to the kauyon.

Against Chaos and Marines, don't under estimate the Kroot. A 20x Kroot squad, is fearful. Two of them is double the trouble. They're cheaper than anything they will have access to, and will outnumber them utterly. Most Marine and Chaos players will prioritize your firewarriors, suits, etc as they have the real guns. But kroot are just as dangerous and sometimes more dangerous from their underdog persona. Sure, a bunch of S4 rapidfire shots are nothing compared to a pulse rifle shot, but 80 S4 shots can be quite dangerous, for any foe short of a wraithlord or c'tan. And if all else fails, assault with 30~40 kroot can either be a victory or at least tie up essential targets in combat while you pick apart the rest of their army with your core.

Remember, Vehicles can fire over combat at other vehicles and monstrous creatures, and other ground troops. Suits can fire over combat at enemy vehicles and monstrous creatures. So don't get caught up thinking you're safe behind a combat screen anymore, and don't let your opponent think that either should he park some assault marines near a combat screen!

Happy Hunting!
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Old 20 Feb 2005, 20:52   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines

well myself I dont see the problem, every army has some things that are lethal to Tau, the only army that is inherntly lethal is necrons (get back up and Gauss) I've never had problems w/ marines myself.

no.1 cure = crisis plasma (you have no Idea how much marine players hate these, they whinge constantly)

no.2 cure = FoF (they have one HW in the squad? who cares, if its not a lascannon you have very little to worry about and if it is its probably a 6 man tac, 24 shots? 6 marines?


just remember the core Tau doctrine "the fast stuff dies first", and get rid of any whirlwinds and the such w/ the HH fast.
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Old 21 Feb 2005, 11:55   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42
thats a very useful tactia, well done ;D

myself, i manage to destory tanks without the use of seeker missiles, a 3 lascannon toting pred is dangerous but a railgun HH IS better and more survivable and mobile enough to get SM tanks downed quickly.

the one thing tau dont like is the heavy bolter annihilater, there is no easy tactuic to preventing this as many units can hold a heavy bolter. I suggest the safe protection from Hbolter fire inside devilfihses. You say FoF is useless but i dont see why a double stike isnt going to do a lot of damage, especially when combined with twin linked plasma fire from 12" (a must versus power armoured opponents IMO with not too many tanks)

Also the railrifle forces a pinning TEST, not auto pinning :P, i find a railrifle squad usually a bit too pricy but i agree with you thety are amzing, especially when combined with amrkelgihts and shooting into bunkers/fortified buildings etc. ;D
1: I was wondering `bout the pinning for Rail rifles, so thanks
2: FoF CAN be effective, but you`re going to need more luck than usual, seeing that the power and range of some of the marines`* heavy weapons can tear devilfishes apart before you can use the tactic
3:having a suit as backup is a good tip when using FoF

thanx

Quote Wrom: WWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFV
well myself I dont see the problem, every army has some things that are lethal to Tau, the only army that is inherntly lethal is necrons (get back up and Gauss) I've never had problems w/ marines myself.

no.1 cure = crisis plasma (you have no Idea how much marine players hate these, they whinge constantly)

no.2 cure = FoF (they have one HW in the squad? who cares, if its not a lascannon you have very little to worry about and if it is its probably a 6 man tac, 24 shots? 6 marines?


just remember the core Tau doctrine "the fast stuff dies first", and get rid of any whirlwinds and the such w/ the HH fast.


I`ve got more problems with the marines, especially cuz they use the come and get me tactic.
Necrons I can usually beat. But you`re right bout the plasma, marines have developed somewhat of an allergy towards those
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Old 21 Feb 2005, 21:14   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines

just as a courtesy : we have the modify post button, dont double post please, modify your last one.

could you geve us rough lists of your opponents? then we could give you more in depth advice about possible tacticum to use.

and BTW : FoF arent fragile AV12 and 11 plus re-rolls for immobile with a DL, not to mention they should be shooting at the ever invunerable HH :P
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Old 22 Feb 2005, 13:06   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy

could you geve us rough lists of your opponents? then we could give you more in depth advice about possible tacticum to use.
There`s these two guys, one chaos, other ultra. I play them everytime I can(not too often yet), but they 80% of the time whip me raw.

They both use heavy weapon teams, deploy them behind ruins and trenches, and just fire from a safe distance.
They both use basic marines, and those(howdoyoucall`em) fast attack 12" movement guys, which just race ahead, forcing me to take them down first, while the rest(dreadnoughts and basic marines),(basic means as much heavy as possible) move forward, if I`m close enough, if not they wait `till I come closer seeing as my FW need to get closer to inflict damage. FoF usually crumbles(they saw right through the technique), and my heavy support is still relatively weak.

Please help.
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Old 22 Feb 2005, 20:42   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines

I'd just like toknow how someone could "see through" FoF, its extremely straightforward....."you cant charge me", exposing a FoF to more than one HW is death to it though.

for this kind of game I think you need to concentrate your firepower on point of his line and focus there, then if he wants to get the outlying HW into range he has to move and not fire for a turn or two, refused flank should work well, ad 3 HH will be needed here, 60" range cant be matched

if you know what it is I'd recommend the HH LOS attack and if you dont (which is more likely I'll begin the process of digging for adequate rescource material.
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Old 22 Feb 2005, 20:54   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines

That may be true against assault armies but against a truly shooty SM army they're not interested in charging you. Instead they blast you with heavy bolters, missile launchers, plasma, assault cannons, bolters, etc. which the DF doesn't do squat to shield you against. So you disembark and RF a unit and then the rest of their army opens up on the FWs standing there. If you only break the unit you RF'd they'll fall back and open up on you with their bolters & heavy weapons (read the last line of the ATSKNF rule; it's a HUGE perk for SMs). Of course this relies on them having LoS but against an opponent who's castling troops in trenches, ruins, etc. it's conceivable that they have more than 1 unit near each other (i.e., fire support for teams) and the unit you RF'd will certainly be able to see you. A heavy bolter devastator unit can be a real hurting on a FW squad if they have LoS. :'(

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Old 22 Feb 2005, 20:58   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to stop Chaos & Ultra Marines

thats not what I meant, I meant that the point is to stop charges, if they dont want to charge it doesnt do anything.

and if you hit one end of their line with everything then the other end cant fire at you, also the FoF is for isolated units,if he castles you have to go in in force, not one FoF.
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