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Brief on using carbines on FW
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Old 04 May 2007, 12:36   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Default Brief on using carbines on FW

I've been working the "mobile Infantry" concept as most of you know, so I thought I'd give a brief update on pros and cons I've found thus far on use of the "commando" units armed with carbines and photons.

In first game, they were essentially ignored. use of markerlights and crisis/broadside fires kept the enemy from paying them much attention, so they were able to move on an objectives with little interaction. Sadly, as we all know, even at a full 6" per turn, they took forever and were only able to render a quarter contested. However, my IG opponant did take note of their existense and made comment that he "wondered what I was doing moving Tau infantry forward". "Looking for a fight" was my answer with a smile, but in reality I was happy they went unnoticed. in that game please note I was running 2 BS, 5 various crisis with MP and some other weapon, 3 other FW units with rifles, a unit of kroot, stealths, PF, and drones. While the commando unit did fine, the drones, kroot, 2 FW units and broadsides took a beating. Game was a victory separated by 200 points. Broken woods and open terrain.

Second game I faced Eldar without skimmers. My good friend has it in his mind that fleeting and hawks, backed by wraiths and reapers, is the way to go. Oddly, his ideas are not far from mine, but he doesn't have crisis suits or 72" str10 guns to match. In this game, the commandos met up with a DA unit that blade stormed them, then attempted to assault; sadly for him they rolled 2" assault in the rubble and this saved my bacon. I failed my test and fell back 10" after loosing 4 to the storm! But they regrouped and move forward again. By the time they reasserted themselves in position to cover an objective with fire, the D Avengers had been smote via missile pod crisis team and had themselves dropped back. The commandos took a couple of scatter laser shots, but nothing more of interest in this battle atrributed to the unit. Partial city, partial rocky open ground.

In last nights, city fight, the commandos made some points back. Facing a 2 pronged SM onslaught, the commandos took up a defensive position on the ground floor of a building, while a ML armed regular FW unit took position in the 2 upper floors. A firefight that lasted 3 turns between a tac marine and a devistator with 4 ML and my crisis and upper story FW ended with the devistators, a drone unit that scatter off the table, the upper story FW unit all destroyed. So his reduced tac SM crossed the street and assaulted the commandos. Photons payed off, and being Tau they took 3 KIA and killed none. But using the "run like agirl" tactic I was able to dash away 8" and he consolidated into the rubbled building. As he gloated, I was smirking because as planed his SM unit was now in a building that provided NO cover in my direction (a wreaked building with 2 walls facing his board edge. So my crisis in the next building popped from 18" away to 12" and rapid fired plasma after marking the unit with 2 ML from the PF. His crestfallen look told the story. Tac marine unit X destroyed after taking 4 plasma wounds, and 3 MP wounds at BS4 and no cover and reduced morale to 7! Yeah baby! In turn 5 the commandos regroups and moved back into the building to regain the objective marker located there

Overall it is as I suspected. The carbine units don't have much opportunity to utilize their firepower and movement without serious exposure to danger. But when the enemy can be lured into a "patient hunter" scenario, then they do shine. Since they were in fall back during my turn of the last game, it was their added carbine shots that tipped the balance in wasting the tac marines.

comments? Questions?

w
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Old 04 May 2007, 12:58   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Brief on using carbines on FW

My CoD buildings and ruins are on 18 inch pieces of gatorboard.

Now, CoD ruins are basically counted as rubble for the WHOLE area, which means you can only see six inches into the terrain, unless you are spotting/shooting into a higher level (which is unobstructed). So if the Tac Marines were deeper than six inches into that terrain, you should not have been able to engage them.
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Old 04 May 2007, 13:27   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Brief on using carbines on FW

yeah, we refuse to use CoD rules, sorry; too many loopholes in the rules. Standard rules. The walls are just that, walls. Thus they are treated as linear terrain peices.
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Old 04 May 2007, 13:29   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Brief on using carbines on FW

The problem I have with Carbine Firewarriors is that by being in range to use their guns, your opponent is also in range to step up 6" and rapid fire. Not a good situation for T3 models with a 4+ save. The net result is a lot worse for you than it is for him. Carbines need to be Assault 2: 18", or Assault 1: 24" before they'll ever see much (any) serious action.
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Old 04 May 2007, 13:35   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Brief on using carbines on FW

Quote:
Originally Posted by T0nkaTruckDriver
The problem I have with Carbine Firewarriors is that by being in range to use their guns, your opponent is also in range to step up 6" and rapid fire. Not a good situation for T3 models with a 4+ save. The net result is a lot worse for you than it is for him. Carbines need to be Assault 2: 18", or Assault 1: 24" before they'll ever see much (any) serious action.
absolutely true, but in my tactical planning having a weapon is just a bonus. I ment to include a smiley on my "photon" statement, because in actuality it didn't matter who went first since the Tau just died without effort.

I call these units commandos, but they are actually bate. All I'm using them for it so lure enemy into a fight where I can gang up other unit's shooting on it. I look on them as a drone unit in many respects: expendable and mobile. I go into a game counting them as already lost for point purposes.

What I want them to do is difficult, but I see lots of assault marines (20 last night) and lots of shooty stuff. If they can present a threat to a unit that contains heavies, then those heavies are not shooting at broadsides for example. As with the eldar, they are able to keep the enemy in a place where I can shoot at them.
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Old 04 May 2007, 18:45   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Brief on using carbines on FW

Heya,

I like Carbine FireWarriors. However, I'm biased in that due to Cities of Death (the only place I field them). And largely due to the local terrain setups. We load the CoD terrain board as much as possible to use it the way it was meant to be (none of that silly 2 building 2 bushes bunk). If you can manage to move your whole movement without rolling 2D6 or take dangerous terrain tests, or if you can shoot and they don't get cover saves (unless said shots ignore cover), then the board isn't setup right and we're not playing CoD.

Anyhow, I like them because all the infantry are going to have to move. I favor the Kroot here, due to their cost advantage and free cover saves. FireWarriors are there because they must be there. So the Carbines come out to play (only one unit after all). Why I use them is because while I can wiggle 2D6" forward of my choice (remember, when you test difficult, you can opt not to move, though still count as moving) I can get advantage with the 18" over the 12". If I use Rifles, and I roll low on my check, I may be out of range due to 12" shots, when I could have remained still for 30" shots. If I use Carbines, I can usually manage the range even with low end difficult terrain tests, due to the extra 6" range on the shot. The other benefit is that if I'm within 12" of a unit that I just fired at, it's going to be in range to shoot me, and possibly in range to attack me (though this is unlikely with difficult terrain unless it's a unit/model that can ignore most of it). Carbines give me a little more distance, so the unit has to move to attack back with rapid-fire or any 12" weapon for that matter, and also limits the ease of distance of flamers (flamers are plentiful in CoD in my area). So the Carbine's +6" while moving gives it a little spark for me, in a format of the game where LOS is largely limited, sitting still is often met with death, and rapid-fire is often met with return fire and FireWarriors just don't win that attrition fight. And hey, while I'm on the subject, I've had my Carbine boys fire and assault something before for a little rough & tumble. Granted this is extremely rare, it's one of those big fish stories you can chant as a Tau player that most people just laugh about since it's silly.

Anyhow, Carbines outside of CoD just don't have as much practical application and reliability as the Pulse Rifle. Back in 3rd edition, they were useful because if you were a moving Tau infantry force, your Pulse Rifles were actually worse than your Carbines. Now, it's the opposite, even though we get full access to Carbines. The Pulse Rifle's double shot rapid-fire makes it superior on the go. The Carbine sadly doesn't compare.

Cheers,
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Old 04 May 2007, 21:14   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Brief on using carbines on FW

where the carbine can find use, however, is in the FoF. While the standard is a full fire warrior team with rifles rapid firing, the problem is that they can get rapid fired back, or even assaulted. carbines help to negate even jump troopers assaulting if done right. The problem is the shear firepower is low. however, the chance (however slight) of pinning is an interesting bonus. Right now I'm experimenting with this, and I'll let everyone know how it turns out. Cheers!
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Old 04 May 2007, 21:53   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Brief on using carbines on FW

Typically, I run my units as 8 riflemen, 4 Carbiners. This gives some interesting layered firepower. Outside of 18", I get 8 shots. Not too bad, I usually drop 1-2 models with that. Then under 18" I have 12 shots, 4 four of which have pinning. If that still doesn't kill them (or pin them so that they can't fire back), I could move up to the 12" mark, and rapid-fire for a full 20 shots, or fall back.

One of the most annoying things to many of my enemies is chasing my carbine squads. I run up infront of slower units, hassle them with the FW, and then retreat, firing off with the carbines and plucking off individual models, which forces additional pinning tests. Yes, they can still be rapid-fired or assaulted by jump infantry/fleet units, but if you're chasing those with your fire warriors (or even just letting them get that close), then they DESERVE to get caught. It's all about hammering the unit with its best counter.
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Old 05 May 2007, 13:36   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Brief on using carbines on FW

I'm somewhat tickled to hear of other non-noobs using carbines. I really enjoy challenging myself, and this is the main reason I decided to run the all carbine units. Not that I'd ever abandon the rifle, never! But having that rouge unit or two who is actually moving? What a hoot.

I've tried the combined units before, and they work ok. I now have my shas'ui with a carbine (and markerlight), but he is usually shooting the light not the gun. So, I really can't tell what effect the sole carbine would have honestly.

Hopefully, I'll be able to get some pics up of my next game. I'd like to photo document their used tactically.

Mal, you'd love my local game shop's CoD table. It is all GW stuff, 4x8', and is a real mass of buildings, rubble, and obsticles. The buildings are all 12.1" apart, or so it seems, and in some part this was a generator of the carbine squads. Because they are just out of "run into the street then assault out of the street" range, you really have to build up some firepower support elements before sending out a squad for CC. I love the fact that you really have to commit on any move, because a crisis can't hope from one building to another without a turn of exposure, their are criss-cross streets that function as firelanes for vehicles, and there are so many rubble piles that one can litterally find a way to roll difficult terrain test every turn just to move around.

But...my main opponants all hate the CoD rules, being old school gamers, and prefer the template cylinder of doom rather than shooting at any one floor. I give them this rather than whine, since in reality it makes little difference for Tau.

W

W
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Old 05 May 2007, 15:09   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Brief on using carbines on FW

i like the carbines only if the squad charging me is wraiths and any other CC units but overall the rifles are better
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