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Creative helpfulness with army lists
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 16:58   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Creative helpfulness with army lists

Many people are posting army lists here and they often get quite a lot of response. So far - so good.

The problem is that many replies are just telling the original poster that their army suck and then present another, completely different, list. What if the player posting the list just have bought the models or just finished painting them. What if the player don't want to go mechanized or static? I think it's common sense to comment an army list from it's basic structure and not try to redo it all. If a list contains Crisis suits I think it's fine to comment on their equipement but I don't think it's okay to tell someone to simply get rid of their Pathfinders and field another Fireknife squad.

Of course advice, with an explanation, is always welcome but I feel like many posts are just there to try to state that the posters tactics is better without beeing creative. I also feel that one should try to play every unit one likes the look/fluff/rules for and retire them when experience tells you to do so. That's the best way of learning.

I care about this much enough to start a topic about it because I like these forums a lot. And I post this in this board because it's here what I'm talking about happens most.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 17:02   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Creative helpfulness with army lists

I'm of the opinion that you should ask for advice before you buy the models ;D saves time and money, if they ask abotu a particular squad or a particular way of playing they get that, however if they just put a list up for criticism it'll get just that, frank honest crititcism, the reason most of the suggestions differ from the origonal list is that the poster doesnt specify what he or she wants, thus it gets changed.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 17:09   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Creative helpfulness with army lists

But do you actually think that that kind of criticism is going to do anything creative or are you just doing it for fun? Don't get me wrong here, you have written plenty of helpful posts in all kinds of topics but you have made some quite meaningsless comments as well. If you do then I can't really argue with you and respect your opinion.

The thing is that I have seen top scoring Tau-armies on 4 ed tournaments without all Fireknife and Fof and with Pathfinders and Gun Drones. These guys must be doing something right and should be the ones adjusting peoples list when they contain those units.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 17:18   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Creative helpfulness with army lists

yes, you can scorew with pathfinders and drones or even without all fireknife( ;D) but its not these adjustments that make the lists better, its the players.

and I comment on peoples lists out of a desire to help them get better, it just happens that the easiest way to do better at 40k is to fix your army, thus I tell them IMO how to better their army, now as noone will admit to being unable to perceive the effectiveness of FoF or how to apply it properly I assume people understand, thus I reccomend the proper adjustments based on an assumed level of intellegence and tactical competence.

there is nothing wrong w/ gundrones, theyre just not the easiest to use and dont often yeild good results from average to middling players (I cant assume everyone is a genius :P) but pathfinders really dont do well IMO ouside of a few scenarios and thus I dont reccomend them, Fireknife is the best allround combo and unless people specify what they will be playing against its the logical reccomendation.

what I think you want here is more specification in what people want when posting lists for criticism.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 20:30   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Creative helpfulness with army lists

You do have a point there, people should be more specific. And people who love another tactics than your's (and mine) should maybe make themself heard a little more. I am going to make my mobile list work and then move on to make something completely different. To my regular opponents, mechanized Tau is something new and they really like playing against it. But soon my list will just be "Stefan's old borig Devilfish-army" and then I have to move on. So part of this is that I want to see new creative ideas and tactics for all units (including Krootox!) discussed and that's why I don't like standardisation in army lists.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 20:46   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Creative helpfulness with army lists

Well, I think you can tell by the list and see what direction the individual is trying to go in and critique from there. For instance, I had a list with zero crisis suits and a lot of kroot and immediately go "suggestions" to put lots of crisis and no kroot. I took it as the friendly advice it was and chalked it up to "difference of opinion".

It would probably be more helpful to look and see "Hey, this guy likes Kroot." and critique based on that, even to say Kroot are no good and why. I ran a 30 Kroot list pretty successfully under v3, but v4 close combat is too deadly now unless you're a marine.

However, in either case, just see what is offered as simple opinion. Although, I have to say, posting a totally different army list that has nothing to do with the original one posted, and being asked about, is just tooting your own horn and not helpful in the least.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 21:08   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Creative helpfulness with army lists

Ok some advice that may help you when posting an army list, to both beginners and oldies alike -

Lay everything out in an easy to read fashion...obvious but it really does matter!

Don't show points cost for individual upgrades, its illegal and annoying to edit :

Try to show the total points cost for each section (HQ, TROOPS etc.)

Include a brief statment at the end or at the beginning saying the tactics you are thinking of using

State the armies you will be playing most, whats in them/or if its for a tournie just say that instead!

State the points cost you are working for in the title and stick to it! (obvious but you would be surprised :)

Write down if you have any other models not in use/about to get some more etc. or if this is every model you own so that people dont make radical suggestions!

Don't ignore all advice, you posted a list so therefore you have to at least listen to what people think, be prepared for them to disagree with you but don't let them get to you but still try to understand where they are coming from. You don't have to agree with them but agree to disagree so no arguments occur and threads dont drag on into oneupmanship arguments....
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 21:16   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Creative helpfulness with army lists

and lastly, remember that everything anyone says is just personal preference. there is no 'you better do this' or 'this is the best way to go'.
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