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Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"
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Old 29 Nov 2006, 00:10   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"

Recently I have switched to a mechanized tau force. I have played a few Games around the 1000 point list and have come across some annoying parts of the FirEwarriors in the D/Fish.

I have come across a bit of a leadership issues when taking losses with the Mounted Fire warriors, and then having them run, or worse run off the table, because of failed ld and below 50%.

I have thought hard about taking a shas'ui and bonding the squad, but do any other Mech Tau players think that it is smart to sacrifice the shots for an additional leadership and bonding.

I generally run this configuration with my Fire Warriors

10 Firewarriors w/ Pule Rifles
Devilfish w/ Smart missle system, Targetting array, Multi Tracker, and decoy launchers.
220pts.


and I was thinking of just doing this with them on lower point games.

8 Firewarriors w/ Pulse Rifles
1 Shas'ui w/ Pulse Rifle bonded
Devilfish w/ Smart missle system, Targetting array, Multi Tracker, and decoy launchers.
225pts.

This would give me 2 less shots but at least would let me regroup below half and would still take 3 casualties before I have to test for 25% losses.

So what do you all think? Should I take the bonding and extra ld for an additional 5pts cost and the loss of 2 shots, or just stick with my original set up?

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Old 29 Nov 2006, 01:34   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"

Honestly, I'd look elsewhere in your army and attempt to free up points. There are a couple of ways to look at the FW force you're currently fielding.
  • 1) You could knock of two more FW from each squad, combine them for one 12-man squad, use one DF and free up a ton of points by dropping the other transport.
  • 2) 8-man FW squads? You'll kill ::doing math:: 1 7/9 Marines with that on average, assuming you're in Rapid Fire range. That's not what I would call lethal, because the remaining Marines will charge you and you'll lose all the FW. So you should...
  • 3) Consider freeing up points elsewhere and take two max (12) squads of FW w/DF so you have some actual-effective firepower. Finally...
  • 4) It's simply not very effecient to mount 8 FW in two expensive Warfish.

Some people will swear by taking the 8-man squads, but unless you roll well, you're simply not going to inflict that many wounds on an opponent. I would seriously consider freeing up points elsewhere and maxing out your FW squads. Either that, or take two minimum FW squads, static (no DF) and take a load of Stealthsuits, which are generally more survivable than the FW, in more ways than one.
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Old 29 Nov 2006, 02:42   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"

Maybe offtopic, but I try to take disruption pods as much as possible on my devilfish. If anything, these are the vehicles you want to avoid being penetrated, because you have troops inside. My hammerheads usually get all the good hiding spots first turn, my devilfish are often out in the open. Also, they can get stunned quite easily (more than 1/6 chance due to decoys).

As for a shas'ui with mounted fire warriors, I don't think it's worth it unless you expect to deploy them outside their devilfish and shoot, while you run the devilfish around as a gunship.

This is because how how often I want my fire warriors to fail leadership. If they get shot when an enemy is close (which often happens because of a rapid fire drop), then running away might put them outside assault distance and leave the assaulters where they stand. Also, if I do get assaulted, I do not want to be hanging around preventing my other units from shooting at the assaulters, I want to remove the models in base contact and run, while they get a 3" consolidation.
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Old 29 Nov 2006, 02:49   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"

For me, I always take a shas'ui and bonding no matter what. They are lifesavers.


Well, you could still use the 10 man squad, with 9 shas'la and 1 shas'ui bonded. I use them often when I play a 1.5k game. But for a 100 point game, I use 7 shas'la and 1 shas'ui bonded.

You might also consider bringing down the points of the devilfish for lower point games. A basic devilfish and a decoy launcher and multitracker is more than enough for 500- 1000 point games.
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Old 29 Nov 2006, 03:07   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"

yeah the warfish is expenisive, but the volume of fire it puts out is nice w/ its survivability. I get 7 str 5 shots at bs 4 and can do this at 1-12 inches, 4 of which don't need LOS.

I see how it could be effective to have them fail their leadership to retreat and avoid assult, but if they retreat below half, well they are retreating for good, and might as well have been assulted.

I don't like the Idea of Static firewarriors in my army, I am trying to stay with the mobile theme, and I really had some bad experiences with my static firearriors in my hybrid list, they almost always died, and never made their points up before some fast assulters ate through them. Not saying this had anything to do with the fact that I placed them wrong, but the fact that most of my opponents, play fast assulty or fast shooty armies. Cover can only save you so much, before they are on top of you, and that cover will only save you for one turn of assulting.

@ TimberwolfCRY

3) Consider freeing up points elsewhere and take two max (12) squads of FW w/DF so you have some actual-effective firepower. Finally...

I don't really see how maxed firewarrior squads with a bare bones d/fish is more acutal-effective firepower than a 10 man squad w/ warfish. A bare bones fish w/ 12 firewarriors can only put out 29 shots if it moves less than 6 inches and deploys its firewarriors. As where a Warfish w/ 10 can put out 27 shots at any distance and 7 shots of which are BS 4. Not really all that much more effective firepower when you consider the bs 4 7 shots with the warfish.

I recently played against a really competative KOS Ork friend of mine, and my warfish tore through his infantry, once I popped his trucks. They also managed to out live the firewarriors. I personally do not want to get rid of the warfish. I would just like to know if people think that the barebones fire warriors are more efficient than the bonded firewarriors in the Fish.

Thanks for all the input so far guys. I like the different perspectives.
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Old 29 Nov 2006, 03:28   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"

Quote:
Originally Posted by onlainari
Maybe offtopic, but I try to take disruption pods as much as possible on my devilfish. If anything, these are the vehicles you want to avoid being penetrated, because you have troops inside. My hammerheads usually get all the good hiding spots first turn, my devilfish are often out in the open. Also, they can get stunned quite easily (more than 1/6 chance due to decoys).

As for a shas'ui with mounted fire warriors, I don't think it's worth it unless you expect to deploy them outside their devilfish and shoot, while you run the devilfish around as a gunship.

This is because how how often I want my fire warriors to fail leadership. If they get shot when an enemy is close (which often happens because of a rapid fire drop), then running away might put them outside assault distance and leave the assaulters where they stand. Also, if I do get assaulted, I do not want to be hanging around preventing my other units from shooting at the assaulters, I want to remove the models in base contact and run, while they get a 3" consolidation.
I don't get it with the disruption pods. You are basically paying for a galncing hit while you can do just that by moving the devilfish 7 inches away and achieve a constant galncing hit result.

I personally am an advocate of the deoy launcher. why? Since you skimmers will most likely move more than 6 inches per turn, the devilfish will often find itself getting galncing hits (if any shot make it thriough the armour penetration rule).

In a galncing hit table, if you move more than 6 inches and get immobilized, you will still get destroyed. to prevent that, the decoy launcher can re-roll the immobolized results to prevent it from crashing. Some may argue that you may get the results back or worse, but I say the decoy launcher is worth it as you will not often get an immobilized result or a vehicle destroyed result again.

As to the way to use the devilfish and the fire warriors, I say that they are better off just trying to use a FOF attack. The fish must always stay with the fire warriors in my opinion, as you can use the fish both as an escape route and a counter-assault object. If the assaulters can't reach you, all you have to do is just put the fire warriors in and just run away, until the opportunity arise when there is an isolated ,weakened squad is available to you.

And for the failed leadership running tactic, I say you are playing a dangerous game tere. You may run, but you will not run far. There wil be other assaulters that can just outmaneuver you and negate the effect of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xartus
yeah the warfish is expenisive, but the volume of fire it puts out is nice w/ its survivability. I get 7 str 5 shots at bs 4 and can do this at 1-12 inches, 4 of which don't need LOS.

I see how it could be effective to have them fail their leadership to retreat and avoid assult, but if they retreat below half, well they are retreating for good, and might as well have been assulted. So basically, I say just stay and fight the assaulters.

I don't like the Idea of Static firewarriors in my army, I am trying to stay with the mobile theme, and I really had some bad experiences with my static firearriors in my hybrid list, they almost always died, and never made their points up before some fast assulters ate through them. Not saying this had anything to do with the fact that I placed them wrong, but the fact that most of my opponents, play fast assulty or fast shooty armies. Cover can only save you so much, before they are on top of you, and that cover will only save you for one turn of assulting.

@ TimberwolfCRY

3) Consider freeing up points elsewhere and take two max (12) squads of FW w/DF so you have some actual-effective firepower. Finally...

I don't really see how maxed firewarrior squads with a bare bones d/fish is more acutal-effective firepower than a 10 man squad w/ warfish. A bare bones fish w/ 12 firewarriors can only put out 29 shots if it moves less than 6 inches and deploys its firewarriors. As where a Warfish w/ 10 can put out 27 shots at any distance and 7 shots of which are BS 4. Not really all that much more effective firepower when you consider the bs 4 7 shots with the warfish.
Yeah, volume of fire is is a good trait of the warfish, but sometims you have to sacrifice some things to make the overall performance better.
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Old 29 Nov 2006, 04:25   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephisto: The Faustian Demonic Fallen Angel
I don't get it with the disruption pods. You are basically paying for a galncing hit while you can do just that by moving the devilfish 7 inches away and achieve a constant galncing hit result.
But keep in mind that on the first turn, this is not an option. Nor is it an option when your opponent has been able to halt your movement through shooting the previous turn. It happens more than most of us would like, and disruption Pods are the only defense we have. Personally, I usually don't have the points for them, at least not for Devilfish. But I can see their value, especially if you are running a skimmer-heavy army focused on VP-denial.
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Old 29 Nov 2006, 07:50   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephisto: The Faustian Demonic Fallen Angel
I don't get it with the disruption pods. You are basically paying for a galncing hit while you can do just that by moving the devilfish 7 inches away and achieve a constant galncing hit result.
But keep in mind that on the first turn, this is not an option. Nor is it an option when your opponent has been able to halt your movement through shooting the previous turn. It happens more than most of us would like, and disruption Pods are the only defense we have. Personally, I usually don't have the points for them, at least not for Devilfish. But I can see their value, especially if you are running a skimmer-heavy army focused on VP-denial.
Yeah, you are right there. But yet we can always use the terrain to out advantage. Just hide behind or partially hide yourself behind terrain, and you have yourself a obscured target.

At least that's how I counter when I didn't get first turn, or not in escalation missions.
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Old 30 Nov 2006, 00:10   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"

Xartus - I didn't mean drop the Warfish; I use them myself, and know how lethal they are. I meant free up points elsewhere so you can take the full squads AND the Warfish. This is probably difficult to do in a 1000 point game though; I'd have to see your list to advise you on what to drop.

As far as the disruption pod/cover thing with the DF - NO, you do NOT always have cover to hide behind first turn. Sometimes you get sparse terrain, it's a desert board, etc.; the disruption pod is insurance. I believe it's only 5 points; 5 points for the chance to save your primary anti-infantry instrument from being deaded turn one. Thank you! No other army has something like the disruption pod, and for a reason: the Tau depend on getting mobile FW to target and take objectives. I take the disruption pod everytime on my two Warfish; those and the FW are to much to waste for only 5 points of insurance.
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Old 30 Nov 2006, 01:32   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Getting down to specifics "Fire warriors and Devilfish"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimberwolfCY
Xartus - I didn't mean drop the Warfish; I use them myself, and know how lethal they are. I meant free up points elsewhere so you can take the full squads AND the Warfish. This is probably difficult to do in a 1000 point game though; I'd have to see your list to advise you on what to drop.
Ah I thought you meant a bare bones fish. My mistake. my 1000 pt list is in the lists as 1000pt Sa'Cea 7th Air Cav.
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