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Tactica: Fire Warriors
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 01:46   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Tactica: Fire Warriors

==================Tactica: Fire Warriors==================
Recently, I have noticed quite a few Tau players posting their army lists on boards - but these army lists have very few fire warriors, just one or two squads, usually! I personally believe that this is a crime and these felons should be prosecuted. The following article is why.
Gaming Aspect:
So, you're a big gamer, eh? Here's why Fire Warriors are right for you.
Pros, Equipped with pulse rifles
Fire Warriors are relatively inexpensive troops, allowing you to field quite a bit of them if you wanted to. They have arguably the best troop weapon in the game, punching in Strength 5, AP 5 shots at an impressive range. This makes them capable of taking down nearly every single unit type in the game - making them extremely versatile. Skimmers with AV 10 or 11 can even be gunned down, not to mention mowing down guardsmen or other troops. Let me shoot some numbers.
12 Fire Warriors firing at a squad of 10 Guardsmen.
1/2 hit, so 6 guardsmen are hit.
1/3 wound, so 4 guardsmen are wounded.
Ignores guardsman armor save, so you've just wiped out almost 1/2 a guardsman squad in one round of shooting from up to 30" away! Now, if you were 12" away, pulse rifles are rapid fire, doubling your shots and therefore doubling your kills, making you kill 8/10 guardsmen in one round of shooting from one squad!
And then you have leadership tests, etc. that the guardsmen need to take.

Say you don't play against guardsmen?
12 Fire Warriors firing at a squad of 6 Marines
1/2 hit, so 6 marines are hit
1/2 wound, so 3 marines are wounded.
1/2 make their saves, so 1.5 marines are dead.
1.5 out of 6 dead (rounded up to 2.) That's 1/3 of a SM squad!

Pulse Rifles have much longer range than the carbines, making them overall more powerful.
Mounting fire warriors in a devilfish even makes them more versatile, giving you extra burst cannon and gun drone shots as well as a good transport for these "snipers."
Cons, equipped with pulse rifles
Pulse Rifles are not pinning like carbines.
You cannot move and shoot (unless within 12")
Fire Warriors are weak in close combat.
Fire Warriors only have 3 BS.
Fire Warriors are somewhat weak, with a 4+ armor save (though plenty of armies have worse)

Pros, equipped with pulse carbines
Pulse carbines are the same as pulse rifles, except they have a bit less range, but the range is sacrificed for some great features. For one, it is pinning, which is EXCELLENT, especially for tau. This has a chance to stop your enemy from moving and shooting the next turn, which is great for tau, because one less movement phase for a troop is one more movement phase away from close combat for you (which is something you definately want to avoid at all costs)
Another bonus is that they are Assault 1. This is not amazing, since you don't want to be assaulting with your Fire Warriors, but it is in most cases better than rapid fire (move and shoot full distance, not just 12")
Cons, equipped with pulse carbines
Pulse carbines have less range than pulse rifles by quite a bit, sacrificing tau's ability to outrange the enemy.
They do not get 2 shots within 12"
As well as the other cons for fire warriors (listed in cons for pulse rifles)
Modelling Aspect
Fire Warriors look really, really cool, and are fun (if a little hard) to paint. There is a lot of variety possible in them, even if they only have two weapon choices. They look good in almost any color combination I've seen - metallics, non-metallics, dark, light, even really bright and bold colors (orange, light blues and greens, yellows) that I normally do not like on 40k models because it contrasts with the grim and menacing feel, that look quite nice on tau models. They are also rather easy to convert.

'Fluff' Aspect
Fire Warriors are very 'fluffy' units. In real life, what would you imagine more than hordes of troops firing hundreds of shots? In real life war, there aren't armies composed of mainly tanks - most armies are almost 100% troops and gunmen. Fire Warriors are these gunmen. They are fun to write about, and commonly written about, warriors that have a strong sense of pride, duty, and honor, and are supposed to be excellent gunmen. And who doesn't like a little blue fish 'ead?

I hope you enjoyed reading my first tactica. It actually was pretty fun to make. Please look forward to my Crisis Tactica! (and comment/critisize on this one!)

Note: Forgive me if my math is wrong, I'm no whiz at that
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 02:15   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Tactica: Fire Warriors

the last bit with the fluff, was kinda off, it wasnt really clear, and i seriously doubt armies are made of 100% gunmen...
there is a VERY nice fire warrior tactica on this sight already. and since your tactica, kinda lacked any tactics at all, just # crunching, im gonna say it was pretty average.
its a good first attempt though!
keep it up!
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 05:56   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Tactica: Fire Warriors

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1shot1kill
12 Fire Warriors firing at a squad of 10 Guardsmen.
1/2 hit, so 6 guardsmen are hit.
1/3 wound, so 4 guardsmen are wounded.
Ignores guardsman armor save, so you've just wiped out almost 1/2 a guardsman squad in one round of shooting from up to 30" away! Now, if you were 12" away, pulse rifles are rapid fire, doubling your shots and therefore doubling your kills, making you kill 8/10 guardsmen in one round of shooting from one squad!
And then you have leadership tests, etc. that the guardsmen need to take.
Pitting 120 points worth of Fire Warriors against 60 points worth of Guardsmen is not fair.

Then you have to consider that Fire Warriors are very focused: they kill infantry, that's ALL they CAN do (oh, and AV10). Guardsmen are poor against pretty much anything, which is why they love taking special weapons. If you wanted a revealing comparison you should have compared them to Dire Avengers, but even then, the two units are probably too different.

Fire Warriors are also poor in CC, which makes them even less all-purpose. Guardsmen (point for point) beat Fire Warriors in CC, and Guardsmen are bad in CC :-[

Also, you neglected to mention cover. Cover is the big killer when using Fire Warriors. You can wave your arms around all you want, AP5 does jack to a 5+ (or even 4+!) cover save. That's my biggest gripe with Fire Warriors: they are wonderful against light infantry, but light infantry can reduce Fire Warrior effectiveness by 33% just by standing in cover, whereas no infantry has a basic gun with AP4, so Fire Warriors gain no real benefit from cover themselves :-\

Lastly, Fire Warriors wound Guardsmen on 2+ (5/6), not 3+ (4/6, or 2/3).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1shot1kill
Say you don't play against guardsmen?
12 Fire Warriors firing at a squad of 6 Marines
1/2 hit, so 6 marines are hit
1/2 wound, so 3 marines are wounded.
1/2 make their saves, so 1.5 marines are dead.
1.5 out of 6 dead (rounded up to 2.) That's 1/3 of a SM squad!
Again, pitting 120 points worth of Fire Warriors against 90 points worth of MEQ isn't fair.

Again, Fire Warriors are two-dimensional: they ONLY kill infantry. MEQs can take different weapons to alter their battlefield role.

Again, Fire Warriors are rubbish in CC. If they lose to Guardsmen in CC you don't wanna see them against MEQs.

Again, your math is off. Fire Warriors wound MEQs on 3+ (2/3) and MEQs save on a 3+, so only 1/3 die.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, Fire Warriors hold no suprises. If your opponent sees them on the table, he knows they're going to shoot at infantry, or AV10 (if available). If your opponent sees them in a transport, he knows they're going to move around and disembark... before shooting at infantry.

A five-man MEQ unit with a rocket launcher? I don't know either. He might shoot at my tank, or my infantry, I just don't know. Creating doubt in the mind of your opponent is priceless. Didn't Sun Tzu say that the pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless?

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Fire Warriors, but claiming they're something they're not doesn't help.
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 06:20   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tactica: Fire Warriors

Here is something for everyone to think about, I only mention this from seeing the probabilities being written. This comes from tmp:

Quote:
"(BTW, the theory of probability was basically invented in order to win dice games. It does it very well.)"
Uhm, no it wasn't and no it doesn't. The science of probability was invented by Blaise Pascal to answer a question raised by a gambler friend of his, which was more or less the following:

Two people are playing a dice game (2d6). Each man will roll the dice, and the first player to win three times in a row wins the bet. The bet is 32 francs from each man (64 total). They roll the dice three times, but the game is interrupted. If the first man won twice and the second once, how should the money be divided? What if the game stopped after only two rolls?

Neither the question, nor Pascal's answer, had anything to do with winning the game; it had to do with predicting the likelihood of the specific outcomes, and thereby determining the percentage of the winnings due the participants. But Pascal's answer could never predict who would actually win, and neither can probability science.

As for the phrase mentioned earlier "it all evens out," that is a false assumption. It's called "The Gambler's Fallacy" and has made casino owners filthy rich. The chance of any result happening on the roll of a die (or two dice or whatever) is always the same. So for a d6, the chance of rolling a 6 is always 1 in 6, no matter what was rolled before. In fact, it is entirely possible that you can roll a perfectly fair d6 a thousand times, and never roll a 6. It just isn't probable (i.e., don't bet on it).
On the flip side, rolling a 6 is no guarantee that the next roll will (or will not) be a 6. Nor is rolling 1000 times and not getting a 6 any guarantee that the next roll will be a 6. The individual odds remain against you.

Take a 50-50 chance, say 1-3 versus 4-6 on a d6. While the individual roll chance is 50%, the total distribution of rolls over time is not predictable to be evenly divided. It can be predicted to be close, but never certain. Just because your opponent rolls 4 or better 55 times out of 100 and you roll 45 doesn't mean that the dice aren't fair, or that you will ever reach an even state of equal rolls up or down if you continue to roll. If that were the case, it wouldn't be random.

(I only understand all this because I just finished a delightful book on Pascal which I am reviewing for an article. More on that next month!)




I fail to see the bad part about Fire warriors not being able to hurt AV12 and higher? Why is that a problem?

Ima big fan of Troops(Fire Warriors) personally. I have noticed that there is this trend on taking minimal troops selections and trying to maxe the other FoC. Why you would do that for I have no idea. I(when playing 40k) like having bodies(models) on the table, the more the merrier.
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 07:09   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Tactica: Fire Warriors

"quote"
I fail to see the bad part about Fire warriors not being able to hurt AV12 and higher? Why is that a problem? "end quote"

well, if i read this right, and I think I do, the its bcz S5 cannot hurt V12 and up, but they can mess up AV10 and 11.

And about the tactica, its better to pit 2 units, that have the same battlefield role, and points value!
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 07:25   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tactica: Fire Warriors

I was being a bit smarmy about that, I was meaning there is very little a Fire Warrior squad cannot shoot at.

Equal points value doesnt work either. Lets not forget Markerlights can make that Fire Warrior squad hit and wound on twos. The other effect is when a Fire Warrior squad shoots at something, they all get to shoot unlike that guard squad shooting at AV ten with only the (insert heavy weapon here)
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 09:19   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tactica: Fire Warriors

Your Mathhammer is flawed.


If you fire 12 Firewarriors at Marines, 6 should hit.
4 should wound (wounding on threes). You said three should wound.
One-third should fail their save, so that's 1.3 kills (NOT 1.5 as you claim).
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 10:04   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tactica: Fire Warriors

You forgot to include mounting Fire Warriors in Devilfish.
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 17:42   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Tactica: Fire Warriors

Quote:
Also, you neglected to mention cover. Cover is the big killer when using Fire Warriors. You can wave your arms around all you want, AP5 does jack to a 5+ (or even 4+!) cover save. That's my biggest gripe with Fire Warriors: they are wonderful against light infantry, but light infantry can reduce Fire Warrior effectiveness by 33% just by standing in cover, whereas no infantry has a basic gun with AP4, so Fire Warriors gain no real benefit from cover themselves
This is probably my biggest gripe about 40k. Everyone should want to be in cover, even space marines (possible exception of termies). It shouldn't be a replacement for an invulnerable save, it should force rerolls on shooting or something.
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 18:36   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tactica: Fire Warriors

I personally like small aggressive Firewarrior squads, with the new codex. Small squads of six at the back of the board in cover with a marker drone make 'alright' ad-hoc snipers. When it comes to 'gunning down the masses' I'm gonna stick to my Stealthsuits. The targeting array is expensive but the extra hit chance pays off...Mathhammer results can't always be taken at face value. Personally I think that the Tau are much more mobile now and this suits them. Large firewarroir army's are two dimensional and lack the ability to 'redeploy'. This is why the Firewarroir is much less effective in the Tau army now. Their pros like to say are the ability to damage AV10 and their range, but as line troopers they pretty much suck. Good in a support roll not your main 'kill all' unit. I think with my new lists the use of a AFP on light infantry can do greater than or equal to the same damage as a squad of twelve firewarroirs firing at more than 12" the advantage of G18" gives the AFP a better roll in Anti-Infantry (Yeah I'm good at guessing, it helps). When it comes to MEQ firewarroirs do have a slight advantage (over normal troop choices), but overall you can't can't on them to drop the enemy. In the long run if you play static you are putting a gamble in mass firepower and terrain to get the victory. If you play mobile mech, your hope is to minimise losses while hitting back at your opponate. In this roll the firewarroir is being used as a strike unit. Getting in fast off loading firepower and hoping not to get charged/fired at (FoF tactic). In this roll the key is to hit hard. This is where large squads work because its mass firepower needed.

Overall I think Mathhammer is a bit of a waste of time because it assumes a fair fight. In 40k you never get a fair fight and so going on Mathhammer alone is complete C*** IMO.

Overall Firewarroirs are ether part of your strike, or they are support units. In the second roll they're are not worth as much as they could be. While in the first roll its a gamble. Sorry for the waffle...I'm in the mood.

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