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Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 09:43   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?

As I sat down on the train here the other day, for the 723th time or something, I scrambled down some few numbers on a sheet of paper and discovered a few things I didn't know. Anyway, I thought I'd share them with you



[size=12pt]<<Tau Unit Effectiveness: Marine Equivalents>>[/size]
Mechanised Tau oriented



Okay, so first off I started out with some various Crisis configurations. Many people are all hyped up about Deathrains, while others swear by the Fireknife. The main purpose of bringing a Fireknife is its versatility, while the Deathrain is just reliable and cheap for what it does. However, there are different ways of equipping Deathrains and Fireknives (targeting array or not?).

Before we start off, here's the formula for unit effectiveness:

Chance to hit * Chance to wound * Chance for opponent to fail armour save * number of shots. This answer is divided by the unit's point cost.

Let's have a small look:

[size=12pt]Deathrain #1: [/size]

Twin-linked missile pod, targeting array: 53 points.

This one will have a chance of killing a meq equalling:

1 - (2/6 * 2/6) * 5/6 * 2/6 * 2 = 640/1296 ~ 0.494

Dividing this chance by his points cost we get an effectiveness of 0.0093

[hr]

[size=12pt]Deathrain #2:[/size]

Twin-linked missile pod, flamer: 47 points.

This one will have a chance of killing a meq equalling:

1 - (3/6 * 3/6) * 5/6 * 2/6 * 2 = 0.4167

Dividing this chance by his points cost we get an effectiveness of 0.00887

[hr]

[size=12pt]Deathrain #3:[/size]

Twin-linked missile pod, targeting array, Shas'el: 78 points.

This one will have a chance of killing a meq equalling:

1 - (1/6 * 1/6) * 5/6 * 2/6 * 2 = 700/1296 ~ 0.54

Dividing this chance by his points cost we get an effectiveness of 0.00692

[hr]

[size=12pt]Deathrain conclusion: Against MEQ's, the Deathrain with targeting array is a little more efficient, yet the Shas'el falls in at the bottom. The flamer grants some protection against hordes of small gribblies; such as Tyranids. It is hard to calculate the effectiveness of a flamer, so this is up to personal preference. I advice you do not equip your Shas'el as a deathrain, as his core price negates the effectiveness. The missile pod has a good range, while commanders can come close and use expensive, short-ranged and powerful weapons with devastating effect. [/size]

[hr]
[hr]

Note: These only apply if the target is further away than 12" and not beyond 24"

[size=12pt]Fireknife 1:[/size]

Plasma rifle, missile pod, multi-tracker: 62 points.

[size=8pt]Here we must add the 2 weapons as they have separate stats[/size]

3/6 * 5/6 * 6/6 = 15/36

3/6 * 5/6 * 2/6 * 2 = 60/216

Adding these the total chance of killing a meq = 150/216 ~ 0.694

Dividing this chance by his points cost we get an effectiveness of 0.0112

[hr]

[size=12pt]Fireknife 2:[/size]

Team leader, plasma rifle, missile pod, targeting array, hard-wired multi-tracker: 77 points.

4/6 * 5/6 *6/6 = 20/36

4/6 * 5/6 * 2/6 * 2 = 80/216

Adding these the total chance of killing a meq = 200/216 ~ 0.926

Dividing this chance by his points cost we get an effectiveness of 0.0120

[hr]

[size=12pt]Fireknife 3:[/size]

Shas'el, plasma rifle, missile pod, targeting array, hard-wired multi-tracker: 97 points.

5/6 * 5/6 *6/6 = 25/36

5/6 * 5/6 * 2/6 * 2 = 100/216

Adding these he will kill this many MEQ's on average = 250/216 ~ 1.1574

Dividing this chance by his points cost we get an effectiveness of 0.01193

[hr]

[size=12pt]Fireknife conclusion: The team-leader is the most effective Fireknife suit. The Shas'el is a close second and the normal Fireknife falls behind. The Shas'el might have an advantage in the form of his Independent Character status, making it easier for him to approach the enemy. The closer a Fireknife gets, the more effective he is.[/size]

[hr]
[hr]

[size=12pt]Crisis Conclusion: The Deathrain suits can operate at longer range, with better effectiveness. If the enemies come closer than 24", the Fireknives will be more effective; especially if they come within 12". The Deathrain suits are cheap and durable, but the Fireknife configuration grants more versatility. Commanders are way more efficient with a plasma rifle, and this is mainly due to their high base cost. In general, team leaders are more efficient than normal suits. This implies it might be a good choice to take monats, but if you have markerlights in your army you should take normal suits in groups instead; as this will drastically increase their potential, whereas monats tend to work decent without markerlights.[/size]

[hr]


Moving on, I have 3 more units to deal with:

First off are the Fire Warriors. These are hard to calculate because of several reasons. They usually spend a lot of the game in cover/a transport, they are often rapid-firing but sometimes not (when they fire at all) and whether to include the transport or not drastically changes their effectiveness.

I have chosen to show their effectiveness in a single turn where they rapid-fire. Why? Well, generally the game goes in 1 + 1 +1 ... turns, so you want to know how much they can perform in 1 turn. The number of turns you get to rapid-fire depends on the game.

[size=12pt]Fire Warrior:[/size]

10 points.

This one will have a chance of killing a meq equalling:

3/6 * 4/6 * 2/6 * 2 = 48/216 ~ 0.222

Dividing this chance by his points cost we get an effectiveness of 0.0222

[hr]

[size=12pt]Stealthsuit:[/size]

30 points.

This one will have a chance of killing a meq equalling:

3/6 * 4/6 * 2/6 * 3 = 0.1111

Dividing this chance by his points cost we get an effectiveness of 0.01111

[hr]

[size=12pt]Vespid:[/size]
These are a little hard as the team leader is mandatory. However, I will disregard his points cost for the sake of simplicity.

16 points.

This one will have a chance of killing a meq equalling:

3/6 * 4/6 = 1/3 ~ 0.333

Dividing this chance by his points cost we get an effectiveness of 0.0208

[hr]

Total unit overview:

-Rapid-firing Fire Warriors are the most efficient anti-meq unit we have.
-Vespid are very very dangerous but will be within charge/rapid-fire range the next turn.
-Stealth Suits are half as efficient as rapid-firing Fire Warriors but can J-S-J + they have their stealth field for added survival.
-Bear in mind other options. Fire Warriors and Stealthsuits are still effective against GEQ's, while the Vespid really lose out here. Another example is a Deathrain/Fireknife vs light vehicles and skimmers, in which case the Deathrain would no doubt come out on top. Fireknives on the other hand would be waaay more important against 2+ units; obliterators and terminators to name a few.


-last but not least the numbers speak for themselves. I am sure you can work out loads of facts based on these, but you have to remember that these are very special scenarios, especially for the Fire Warriors.
-numbers speak for themselves, true, but they are only numbers. Don't rely upon them too much, just take them for what they are - averages showing you how various units will perform in general over the course of hundreds of games.


[hr]
[hr]


Thoughts/suggestions/criticism?

~Olannon
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 11:16   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?

I've only just started looking at this, but I wonder if your Shas'el figures are a little redundant you have given a model with BS 4 a targeting array BS 5 and twin-linked the weapons. I don't need maths to see that this is a waste. How does it pan out if you give a shas'el twin linked missile pods and some other device possibly a flamer but more usefully a Command Node or Positional Relay, to take advantage of the fact it is also a HQ choice with IC abilities?

Obviously, choosing a basic crisis with targeting array is cheaper than a Shas'el without a targeting array, but there are other factors there.

The other two configurations are quite interesting. Perhaps the flamer one would work better with GEQ, though?

Best,
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 12:39   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?

Quote:
The team-leader is the most effective Fireknife suit. The Shas'el is a close second and the normal Fireknife falls behind. The Shas'el might have an advantage in the form of his Independent Character status, making it easier for him to approach the enemy.
I thought you should know that your numbers disagree with your statement. It's probably a typo, but it should still be fixed either way.

Otherwise, not bad for a 'why not?' sort of analyzation. Maybe add another few dealing with fusion blaster equipped suits, trying to take into account the likelyhood that they'll kill a few marines and still be around afterwords.

Just some 2-cent ideas.
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 13:25   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?

your numbers say the FW has a .2222 chance to kill, but the stealth has 3 shots and has less of a chance ???
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 13:28   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?

Its not chance per kill, its points efficient per kill. So a fire warrior is a more efficient kill, while a stealth, at three times the cost, has a less efficient kill percentage.


Either that, or I read it wrong, and you're right. ???
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 13:37   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elstur
your numbers say the FW has a .2222 chance to kill, but the stealth has 3 shots and has less of a chance ???
No. You're both right.

the "0.222" is the chance to kill. the 0.0222 is the points effectiveness.
The Stealth has a chance to kill of 0.333 I think and a points effectiveness of 0.0111. Better at killing but not at a rate proportionate to its cost increase. So the FW is still the best bang for the buck, just not the best overal bang.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olannon

-Rapid-firing Fire Warriors are the most efficient anti-meq unit we have.
That's either the most depressing or the best thing I could have heard this morning. I haven't made up my mind.
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 14:06   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?

You know, this analysis is purely from an offensive standpoint. You don't really calculate how easy it is to lose fire warriors due to their 4+ save. I'd rather have stealth with JSJ, stealth, and a 3+ save.

Additionally Fire Warriors in rapid fire range may be the most effecient point wise offensively, but to protect them at that range, you need a devilfish. That means a minimum of an 80 point transport sink. Not to mention the rounds they are spent in the transport, not firing.

Last but not least, your analysis left out one of the best anti MEQ units we have, the sniper drone team.

Here's their effeciency rating assuming they use their own markerlight

Chance to hit = 1/2
chance to hit with Markerlight = 2/3
Added bonus from possible ML hit = 2/3*1/6 = .111111
New average to hit rate = .611111
Chance to wound = .611111*5/6 = .50925
Number of shots in unit 3*.50925 = 1.5277 MEQ kills
Per point efficiency rating = .0191 MEQ kills per point

Here we have an efficiency rating which doesn't rely on transports or rapid fire range, merely LOS. It is more efficient than everthing you demonstrated except the Fire warriors in rapid fire range(don't forget the cost of that DFish) and Vespid Don't forget the unit has target locks, and pinning, and 36" range, and stealth suits, and the added versatility of markerlights.


Another one you missed is the burning eye config in rapid fire range

Crisis suit, TL:Plasma, Targetting Array = 65 points
.833(chance to hit)*.833(Chance to wound)*2 = 1.387 MEQ kills
Point efficiency = .02135 MEQ kills per point.

Holy smokes that is almost just as good as the Fire warriors in rapid fire range, but needs no D-Fish and has JSJ to get back out of harms way.
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 15:32   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?

That would be easy enough to work out, did it with Kroot a while back. If you have a decent calculator (or are patient enough). I'd go for

Points of marines killed per points of firing unit killed.

Will also get you better numbers as its going to be whole numbers (or two decimal places), makes the presentation a lot easier. When calculating the points lost from Tau casualties, use a marine squad of equal value (i.e no of marines = Tau points/15) and don't forget to use decimal points (no rounding to get whole marines!). The full version of the equation then -

(Number of shots) x P(hit) x P(wound) x P(fail save) x 15
(Points of Tau unit/15) x 2 (if within 12) x P(hit) x P(wound) x P(fail save)

Gives you a combined combat effectiveness - how many casulties you will cause compared to how many you will take in return. [size=4pt]Hence why kroot are a far better choice to make up the majority of a static Tau army rather than firewarriors, as well as being more in line with the background[/size]

If you wanted an even better representation you could use a standard 10 man tactical squad with heavy bolter and rocketlauncher/lascannon to work out the 'in return' section, and then just scale the number of kills to fit the points of the firer. Its not perfect, but its closer to the real value. Would be easy enough to work out extra bonuses like stealth fields (getting an 8 to see 24" in night fight is a 13/18 chance) and drones as well.

If you're wondering what the point of this is, the number you get is the dueling index which should be used in combination with the average number of kills. A unit that gets a value above 1 is capable of going toe to toe with a marine squad knowing that they will be the last ones standing. If its less than one, even though they may have a very high average number of kills, they can't take advantage of this in a straight fight.
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 16:25   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?

Heya,

I have a couple problems with most of this. As someone else mentioned already, we have a heap of numbers here but no in-game variables which effect the ability of each unit to achieve that `effectiveness' is taken into account, nor the resilience of the unit which effects how it's ability to sustain such an `effectiveness' for its points. Most of this is also only centered around very few Crisis suits, which are not the best suits designed for the job and everything is based on being extremely close range, which doesn't have to be the case. Many aspects of mechanized Tau are not even present here. Simply old variants that have had their stats waxed left and right for years.

For example, how much damage can the suit/unit be expected to take, before they're destroyed at equal and greater ranges by the Marines. All these numbers are fine, but they don't account for the fact that Marines very often out range Tau on an infantry basis and have guns that ignore our saves and can force instant death far more often than our infantry can.

Battlesuit - Marines can kill a suit with a single wound with very good odds (missile, lascannon, power fist).
StealthSuits - These are more resilient to Marine return fire. They're more resilient than XV8.
FireWarriors - Only efficient at killing marines in rapidfire range. Marines are more efficient at killing FireWarriors at rapid-fire range.
Vespid - The moment they're in range to deal death, they're expected to be totally destroyed by just a handful of bolters

-- It's not points efficient to kill marines if you can't survive long enough to actually `be' points efficient. Of the four examples you listed above, the Stealthsuits have a better chance to survive longer against marines and even though they don't have the highest kill/point ratio, their higher chance to survive will mean more turns of kill/point ratio that truly `happens.' Those other units don't earn kills per point if they're not shooting, be it due to lack of range or that they've already died due to swallowing a lascannon or heavy bolter, or just a handful of bolters.

A lot of this has to do with assault range, which has not been noted. Marine firepower is stronger than Tau fire power and we will not win a fire fight with a very shooty marine list, not even with a maximized skimmer list. The problem here is that all of these units must be very close to the MEQ in order to deal significant damage, or achieve the kill/point ratio you've described. If you're in rapid-fire range, you're in assault range. Once Tau are in assault, there is no more shooting and they're not earning their point/ratio effectiveness and are not living up to the statements made here. If you're in rapid-fire range and something survives, you got one chance to shoot with them typically and then you're in assault. This is not efficient. One cannot assume the MEQ player has no sense either, as he will have guns, will have assault units that will be pressuring you and will have no problem stepping up to smack a few Tau units around in either phase. All of this effects the efficiency of each unit presented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olannon
Rapid-firing Fire Warriors are the most efficient anti-meq unit we have.
This is not true. It's true in your limited list of unit choices though. Kroot are a big part of mechanized Tau as well. They're more efficient, point per kill, at killing a Marine than even a Fire Warrior. They don't need a transport to afford the 12" range either, cover saves are free and we can take a large number of them, and they're better at receiving assaults than Fire Warriors, with better attacks and odds to deal damage in said assault, which is inevitable if we're rapid-firing. They're a better deal overall. They've been a dominant troop in mechanized Tau more often than actual Fire Warriors, yet left out of all of this.

-- As for the actual Crisis suits, it's just the same old Fire Knives and Death Rains. Neither are best suited for MEQ busting. Neither are the best suits for mechanized cadres either. There is no absolute best since it totally depends on the player, the player's opponents and the environment and mission being played. I don't see why this has to be limited to a Fire Knife and Death Rain.

Range - `The 18" range advantage'

Anything that must be within 12" of the MEQ to have `effectiveness' is not going to truly be effective since they will also likely take serious return fire (bolters, plasma, melta, assault). Unless they're completely killed in the process, you will also take a hard beating and risk losing your unit as well. Vespid are great at killing marines for example, but the humble bolter and marine costs less than the Vespid and easily kills the Vespid without a save after it came right to him, and the marine wins in assault against the Vespid too. It doesn't matter how effective the gun is, it matters how effective the gun is combined with how reliable its delivery and use is; which the Vespid is severely crippled with. A Battlesuit that must be that close to an opponent to achieve kills is subject to the same return fire. A plasmagun or meltagun combined with bolters is a dead battlesuit or two, very quickly. Even with the Jet Pack assault move, they're going to be in the same rapid-fire range that they needed to get their handful of kills, if even that. And if they were marines with enhanced movement, well, you're in assault. FireWarriors hoping out of a Devilfish to achieve their effective kill/point ratio don't have that transport cost factored in, or the reliability of it delivering them. FireWarriors that earn this effective ratio by having marines come to them while they simply walk, are likely subject to all kinds of firepower and you can't expect much there. Also, even after stepping out of a Devilfish to perform all that to get what, 2 or 3 marines killed off, all it takes is a single heavy bolter, or even two just to even give the marine player an ounce of sense, and he rips those FireWarriors to shreds. Marine shooting is utterly brutal against FireWarriors. If you're in range, they're in range, and if they're alive, you're dead.

Things that are relatively effective at 18" range are better suited to battling your standard MEQ on foot, and even have some chance against the enhanced movement marines, like Assault Marines and Bikes. 18" range puts you outside of rapid-fire range for return fire if you have a jet pack to move with, and also puts you outside of assault range. That alone, makes them far more likely to not be completely destroyed in retaliation fire from the unit you just attacked should it still be standing. Not all infantry have this option, but our Battlesuits have this option. They're better at surviving in general against MEQs simply due to the break point in effective marine ranges: (1) rapid-fire range, (2) plasma, melta range, (3) assault range.

[hr]

Example I - Burstcannon & Missile Pod

XV8 Crisis
-Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Multi-tracker
@50 points.

According to your idea of kill/point ratio, this suit has 0.0122 compared to your standard Fire Knife at greater than 12" which is 0.0112. Greater than 12" means we're outside of that critical break point of ranges for the marines to return fire with their maximum effectiveness. Our suit is cheaper and kills more marines per point at a greater range, which means we have a higher survivability in the fight against the MEQ. We still have good odds for anti-light armor too. The only loss, is the ability to ignore 2+ saves. But any suit equipped with missile pods firing at MEQ with 2+ saves are not even half-effective at it. But just for the sake of argument of the 2+ save, let's look at that.

At greater than 12" but not beyond 18" inches, vs. 2+ saving MEQ (terminators for example).
Your Fireknife is 0.00672. The above suit with just a burst cannon is 0.00611.
Imagine that. We don't even have AP2 and we're pretty good at killing even a Terminator.

- Better resilience against most critical MEQ ranges, for shooting and assault at close range. 18" range advantage.
- Better kill/point ratio than your Fire Knife. More utility than a Death Rain.
- Still good at popping something with a 2+ save like the Fire Knife.

Just a humble burstcannon and missile pod.

[hr]

Example II - Burstcannon & Plasma Rifle

XV8 Crisis
Burstcannon, Plasma Rifle, Multi-tracker
@58 points.

This suit also has the 18" range ability, and already surpasses the Fire Knife at the same range, and surpasses the burstcannon/missile pod setup above at the same range. This suit has a point/kill ratio against your standard MEQ of 0.0129. And it gets even better at closer ranges than the Fire Knife has at within 12" range. We do lose out on most anti-tank capability though, at the cost of being better at killing a MEQ on foot.

- Better resilience against most critical MEQ ranges, for shooting and assault at close range. 18" range advantage.
- Still Better kill/point ratio than your Fire Knife.
- Still great against 2+ saves.

Plasma reliability and a humble Burst Cannon.

[hr]

Quote:
Thoughts/suggestions/criticism?
It simply doesn't matter how fantastic we are at killing something if we can't hang around long enough, or afford enough of the unit to make it happen reliably. If all we're doing is buying it for a one-time-show-down and then we lose it, it's not that effective for a battlesuit. It works for infantry like Kroot, but not for the XV8 or even Fire Warriors.

Stealths and 18" range advantage XV8's will survive more often against the general range of Marines. They're all still subject to marine ranged weapons like the lascannnon or heavy bolters and assault cannons, but the difference is the critical break point in rapid-fire range and assault range, which is where we will lose things even faster. Everything is at risk to a lascannon or heavy bolter that is infantry, but not everything is vulnerable to a plasmagun and meltagun and assault range with a power weapon or power fist. And that's where 18" range makes the bigger difference than 12" range. And the funny part is, we're better at killing MEQ at greater than 12" range with some battlesuits than some suits built to kill MEQ at 12" and less ranges for less points. But we're less likely to be dragged down into assault by a typical Marine. This also puts us in effective range more quickly than a suit that requires closer range. The Stealth takes it a step further by taking more advantage of that 18" and greater range due to their cloaking. They can take more punishment from shooting than the XV8 can, and Stealths are not at risk from lascannons and heavy bolters that are further away than 24" typically. So they're good at tipping the scale against assault and rapid-fire range and avoiding big guns. The stealth is simply more reliable in that way, even if it has less odds to actually kill a marine than other battlesuits and less ability to no ability to pop various tanks. But we also have deliverability through infiltration and jet pack, compared to just jet pack and the random chance of deep strike of the XV8.

If we're going to seriously talk about effectiveness of `Tau units' there should be more units involved than aged ones and a handful of numbers that don't really tell us much. There's more to effectiveness in the sense of delivering the kill and guarding the death of your unit or it's resilience to return fire and assault than simply being able to, when the situation is perfect in a vacuum, achieve a higher kill per point ratio on a unit. It also helps to think about the target priority of your opponent when it comes to these infantry suits. Death rains are less of a priority than a Fire Knife for example, but other units are more dangerous and still have a lower threat profile to a good host of marine players. It's not always the same of course, depending on who's playing, but this is a major variable that is only known in each particular game and cannot be quantified really.

We've had endless `stat' charts for all the weapons and all the units. It's not helpful. What is helpful, is to discuss how we can use it, why it's better in the game, and not simply look at things in limited vacuums where no other in-game variables are included--including opponents reactions and choices that are not assumed to be total mistakes and the enemies ability to maul us even easier and better at various ranges than we can cut them down. Plus, cover was never included, which has a big impact on the effectiveness of low AP weapons being used, while it doesn't stop the effectiveness of weapons that don't rely on AP to punch through.

Cheers!
(Edited a few times to correct some numbers, which may still be incorrect, will wait for suggested corrections if needed.)
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Old 26 Oct 2006, 17:08   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Effectiveness against MEQ opponents - did you know..?

Look, the point of this thread was simply to show you guys a few things I didn't know. It wasn't meant to be a "The Tau unit Effectiveness Guide" or something. Notice the headline: Did you know...? It is simply a thread covering *some* of our units in quite basic circumstances. Calculating ingame variables is impossible; hence I didn't even start. As I sat on the train I thought I'd compare a few of the most popular and seen suits (competitive-wise, just check a few tournaments lists around) and see if I discovered something; which I did. Same goes for Fire Warriors, Stealths and Vespid.

Now, if I haven't done all 100 Crisis Configs, it was simply because I didn't intend to!

Allright, let me ask you:

Did you know that a team-leader Fireknife is the most efficient Fireknife suit we can get (I am not going to argue that efficiency is anything else than average kills divided by points- because if it is anything different it will be impossible to calculate)?

Did you know that Vespid are slightly less efficient than Rapid-firing Fire Warriors against Marines?

Did you know that twin-linking a weapon on a commander will prove inefficient because of his high base cost as compared to doing it on the Shas'ui suits?

If your answer to any of these questions is 'no' my thread was successful. If not, then let it be for the ones who did answer no to at least 1 of these questions.

Now a few quotes for the sake of it:

Quote:
As someone else mentioned already, we have a heap of numbers here but no in-game variables which effect the ability of each unit to achieve that `effectiveness' is taken into account
Well, how I calculate effectiveness is found in the original post. If you have another way of doing it, that's fine, but that will probably not be with numbers.

Quote:
Kroot are a big part of mechanized Tau as well
Depends, a lot of players disagree. Whether Kroot can be considered to be "mechanised" is not decided. But yeah, rapid-firing these have a greater effectiveness than Fire Warriors.

Quote:
A lot of this has to do with assault range, which has not been noted
True, how do you work this in? What number is assault range? Ie hitting on a 4+ = 0.5 What number is assault range? 0.3? No, it has no number, hence can't be included. I put forward basic, mathematical facts that, to me at least, were interesting. If they're weren't to you, then my apologies. You're criticising a painting from a writer's point of view. In other words, although it was clearly stated what this thread was based upon you argue about something else.

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Things that are relatively effective at 18" range are better suited to battling your standard MEQ on foot, and even have some chance against the enhanced movement marines, like Assault Marines and Bikes. 18" range puts you outside of rapid-fire range for return fire if you have a jet pack to move with, and also puts you outside of assault range. That alone, makes them far more likely to not be completely destroyed in retaliation fire from the unit you just attacked should it still be standing. Not all infantry have this option, but our Battlesuits have this option. They're better at surviving in general against MEQs simply due to the break point in effective marine ranges: (1) rapid-fire range, (2) plasma, melta range, (3) assault range.
You speak so warmly of all the ingame variables, yet here you seem to take it for granted that the Tau player has no terrain to jump behind. It's like, 12" away is going to see you being assaulted next turn; period...

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It simply doesn't matter how fantastic we are at killing something if we can't hang around long enough, or afford enough of the unit to make it happen reliably.
Very true, which is why you must choose where and when to strike, something a guide should cover.

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We've had endless `stat' charts for all the weapons and all the units. It's not helpful.
Saying that knowing yourself is not useful...? Well ok, everyone's entitled to have an opinion. In my opinion knowing how much to expect from my units against certain targets; instead of guessing on my gamefeeling is important to prioritize. Even tournament winners practice mathcraft, and there is a reason...

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You know, this analysis is purely from an offensive standpoint. You don't really calculate how easy it is to lose fire warriors due to their 4+ save.
You're right But I know how much 1 man will do against a certain target. I don't know how many other targets can do to that man, because I don't know who they are, what they carry or how many they are. It can't be calculated, the closest thing is something like Tastyfish proposed, however this is not accurate. The chance of a Fire Warrior killing a marine on the other hand, is always accurate and the same.

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That's either the most depressing or the best thing I could have heard this morning. I haven't made up my mind.
Fire Warriors rock, don't they? They are an offensive unit and they'll die pretty easily. However, WHEN they first open fire you really get a lot back for the humble points you spent on them.

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I thought you should know that your numbers disagree with your statement. It's probably a typo, but it should still be fixed either way.
Thanks for pointing it out - typo fixed

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Well, that's about it for now

~Olannon
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