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Advice on stopping a juggernaut...
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Old 27 Aug 2006, 14:35   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Advice on stopping a juggernaut...

Hi!

This is my first posting on this fine forum. Iím basically a rookie in 40K, and have chosen to play Tau (simply because they were the only army that were sci-fi).

My problem is that my dear friend, who introduced me to yet another expensive hobby, plays Chaos. And he got so bummed that I beat him in the first game that he started this thread:
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=30872.0

His description is not totally accurate, but close enough - Me winning in the end was just pure luck. His last unit of marines was fighting my last unit of firewarriors in CC, and my leader and a devilfish occupied the objective. So I basically won on points (since those units arent scoring), and agreement that I was sort of morally King of the Hill (we made a hill in the middle of the table the objective).

Now he has taken the advice to heart and has equipped his fancy leader with a Juggernaut of Khorne, leaving me in distress about things to come... Iím not sure my current army-list will be able to handle this charging CC-expert on speed. So what will it take to stop him? Should I put my hopes on unloading on him as soon as possible, maybe with a changed roster with a railgun or two? Would a railgun instakill him (unless he succeeds in Feel No Pain)? My fear is that he will simply move to rappid, and taking advantage of every bit of terrain he can find...

Any advice is appreciated.
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Old 27 Aug 2006, 14:47   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Advice on stopping a juggernaut...

I think(not completely sure and dont have my rule book at this minute), Feel No Pain is only after you fail an armor save, not an Invulnerable save. It also depends on if he gives him demonic stature, since I think that upgrades it to T6.

The best thing I've seen has been skimmers. Run devilfish and piranha's and keep them the closest thing to them. I'd run decoy launchers and dischargers on all of them. In this situation its keep your ship floating long enough for you to consolidate fire while he flips out and chases skimmers.
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Old 27 Aug 2006, 16:00   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Advice on stopping a juggernaut...

Heya,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ka-No-Bushi
Now he has taken the advice to heart and has equipped his fancy leader with a Juggernaut of Khorne, leaving me in distress about things to come... Iím not sure my current army-list will be able to handle this charging CC-expert on speed. So what will it take to stop him? Should I put my hopes on unloading on him as soon as possible, maybe with a changed roster with a railgun or two? Would a railgun instakill him (unless he succeeds in Feel No Pain)? My fear is that he will simply move to rappid, and taking advantage of every bit of terrain he can find...
Well, if he took the advise given to heart, then he will not be using a Juggernaut of Khorne. If he's using the HQ that was listed to him, then you have some worries. A fast moving feel no pain lord will be in combat fast. However, he's still easy to kill. A single Str8+ shot will instakill him. And feel no paint cannot be used against shots that cause instant death. A railgun will vaporize him without a single save possible (other than an inv. save). So fear not. He's still very killable. Even a seeker missile would remove him without a single save. It's that easy.

Now, if he is in fact using a juggernaught of khorne, then rejoice. These are terrible and slow. You will easily destroy him and laugh as the expensive character just dies. Juggernaughts have zero enhanced movement. So he has no speed on you. And again, he still dies to any Str8+ shot as it will insta kill him with no save, except an inv. save (no feel no pain save would be possible).

So in retrospect, here's what you need to know:

Speed Lord, non-Juggernaught:

- A single railgun shot will instakill him.
* The only way for him to not be instakilled by the railgun is by (A) passing an invulnerable save, or (B) a daemonic rune.
* Feel No Pain saves never work against Railguns. Feel No Pain cannot be used against weapons which would cause instant death.
- If the model is not a monstrous creature, then any Str8 or higher attack will isntantly kill him if it successfully wounds.
* Again, feel no pain cannot be used if the shot will cause instant death.
* Invulnerable saves are his only hope (he can get a 5+ invulnerble save).
* The daemonic rune is the only other way to stop instant death; and it's ultra expensive so probably won't see it.
- If the Lord moves very fast (such as moves 6" then D6" more, then a 12" assault) then you have one turn to kill him.
* Killing him is easy. Two railguns will do it, pretty easily. If in doubt, add in two seeker missiles. He will die.

Weapons to use: Railguns, Fusion Blasters, Seeker Missiles, Ion Cannons.
(Note: do not use seekers or ion cannons if the character has a 2+ save; only railguns/fusion will work there well)

Juggernaught, Khorne Character:

- Railguns will toast him; No feel no pain save possible; The same is true with Seeker Missiles and Fusion Blasters.
- Only an invulnerable save will save him against those kinds of attacks (unless he has a 2+ save against Missiles).
- Juggernaughts are slow. You will have 2 or 3 turns to shoot him down easily. He cannot boost the speed.
- Juggernaughts can frenzy, and have D6" extra movement. You still will have 2 turns easily of shooting.

Weapons to use: Railguns, Fusion Blasters, Seeker Missiles, Ion Cannons.
(Note: do not use seekers or ion cannons if the character has a 2+ save; only railguns/fusion will work there well)

Again, same exact thing.

---- The thing to remember, is that they all die just as easy. The only difference that you need to pay attention to, is if he has Speed (so that he can move 6+D6+12" assault) or if he's on a Juggernaught or anything slow. That's all that matters really. Otherwise, knowing if he has a Daemonic Rune or not is good; a Rune will prevent instant death. Feel No Pain can be totally ignored by Str8+ weapons unless he has Daemonic Stature (which cannot be used with juggernaughts). The Railgun will always work, no matter what here. The only thing that stops a railgun here, is a passed invulnerable save, and a Daemonic Rune.

So worry not; you're more than well equipped to hose a Chaos Lord. Just make sure you shoot him before assault. That's the only trick to it; do it before he can assault you. Make certain of that.

Added Note: Remember, instant death is based on the base toughness of a model. A model with an upgrade to enhance it's toughness value, does not use that modified toughness when calculating instant death. A Chaos character can easily be T5, but he is never truly T5 unless he has Daemonic Stature. So for example, a chaos character that is not a monstrous creature can have T4(5), from daemonic resilience or the use of a juggernaught. The codex itself makes it clear, but I'll reinforce it to you, that you always use T4 when calculating instant death, even if the character is T5 from an upgrade. Always use the unmodified toughess, which is why it should be looked at as T4(5) to show that it's 4 for instant death, and 5 due to an upgrade. So your Str8 weapons will instakill a model with T4(5) even though he has T5, you still instakill him with Str8. That's critical to remember, so that you're not duped. Models with daemonic stature are T5 base, so only a Railgun can instakill them, but if he's T6, you can still instakill him because it's T5(6) and you use the unmodified toughness value---this only applies to Chaos characters in this manner.

Cheers!
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Old 27 Aug 2006, 17:41   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Advice on stopping a juggernaut...

Thanks for the input. I now think that he was probably sort of trying to scare me with his newly painted Juggernaut, because he was depicting that model as being able to be a Speed Lord (as you described it MalVeauX). But now I see that that is not possible - he would be moving with the speed of the Juggernaut. And I don't think that will be someting he will consider, since that would be a Sitting Duck moving across the table... But then again, he is prone to wanting to field newly painted models he has never used before...

I will have to see what he does, it may depend on what army-lists we agree on in the end (we tend to have a few optional ones, so that one of us doesn't field something that the otherone cannot possibly counter).

Thanks again!
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Fry: Uhh, just so we know: who's the enemy?Ē
Brannigan: ďA valid question. We know nothing about their language, their history or what they look like. But we can assume this: they stand for everything we donít stand for. Also they told me you guys look like dorks!Ē
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Old 27 Aug 2006, 18:51   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Advice on stopping a juggernaut...

does juggernaught of Khorn confer daemonic speed as well considering it's a steed?

so you'd have to watch out @ 18 inches, but daemonic flight or bikes are so much nasiter to Tau
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Old 27 Aug 2006, 20:06   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Advice on stopping a juggernaut...

and be careful that he doesn't have a daemonic rune on his lord as it stops instant death
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Old 28 Aug 2006, 16:08   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Advice on stopping a juggernaut...

I don't know if it confers Daemonic speed, I don't think so - but I haven't read the Chaos codex too closely.

Daemonic Rune is a problem, yes. But here's hoping the Dice-gods are on my side at that moment...
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Fry: Uhh, just so we know: who's the enemy?Ē
Brannigan: ďA valid question. We know nothing about their language, their history or what they look like. But we can assume this: they stand for everything we donít stand for. Also they told me you guys look like dorks!Ē
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