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Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question
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Old 21 Aug 2006, 20:35   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question

Short rules question (hoping this is the right forum for it).

Had my first Cities of Death games today (two wins against Dark Angels! ;D), and in the last game in the last turn a question arose:

Can I use the 6" jump movement of my Battlesuits/Drones to get from the ground to the top of a building which is more than 6" tall? My friend built a cool Cityfight scenery from the Monastery of Madrigales (Battlezone Verdia), and one of this towers is more than 6" tall...

The rules say jump packs ignore the terrain between them and their targets, i.e. the team could jump OVER the highest building without problem.

But can it land on the top of said building?

I`m inclined to say yes, but its hard to justify if someone points at their movement rate of 6" and is waving the Cities of Death book at you...
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Old 21 Aug 2006, 20:44   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question

Jump and Jet packs can land on top of buildings (the Cities of Death Codex makes mention of this itself, on page 9, in reference to intact buildings). However, doing is is entering dangerous terrain, so you'd have to make some dangerous terrain tests.
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Screaming defiance with the last breath,
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"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain"

Learn to shorten your reach! If your foe can come close enough to negate your striking power, all stratagem is lost, and when all stratagem is lost, the battle is lost.

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Old 22 Aug 2006, 16:34   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question

Thanks very much!
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Old 22 Aug 2006, 16:46   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question

I disagree. The CoD rules specifically state the vertical movement is restricted to the amount you may move horizontally. It does not except Jump/Jet packs from this.

In going with RAW emphasis, I believe our Jets are rather screwed, unfortunately. But that's the way I see it.

It is therefore possible, if you had a building 5 inches across, but 10 inches high, that you could jump over it while still being forbidden to land on top of it.

Folks in my area support this interpretation despite how silly it obviously appears to be. City fighting is supposed to level certain advantages, jump moves apparently being one of them.
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Old 22 Aug 2006, 17:16   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by CmdrBonesaw
Short rules question (hoping this is the right forum for it).

Had my first Cities of Death games today (two wins against Dark Angels! ;D), and in the last game in the last turn a question arose:

Can I use the 6" jump movement of my Battlesuits/Drones to get from the ground to the top of a building which is more than 6" tall? My friend built a cool Cityfight scenery from the Monastery of Madrigales (Battlezone Verdia), and one of this towers is more than 6" tall...

The rules say jump packs ignore the terrain between them and their targets, i.e. the team could jump OVER the highest building without problem.

But can it land on the top of said building?

I`m inclined to say yes, but its hard to justify if someone points at their movement rate of 6" and is waving the Cities of Death book at you...
There's a few things to this. Namely, was it an intact building or a ruin? An intact building, you could have made a jump move on top of it, but only if you and your opponent agreed that it was possible before the game started (page 9, CoD). If it were a ruin, though, this would be different because the rules of moving up and down are that of the 4th rulebook, and then CoD simply works on that. If you cannot move up or down "inside" the ruin, due to your movement being limited or not far enough, then it simply doesn't happen.

Just to note - there's a big reason why City Fight doesn't work well with people who make their own terrain but do not take in the rules completely before doing so. Distances more than 6" should not really happen in your levels in a Ruin, because it generally makes it impossible to deal with, with most units. And beyond that, it just gets hairy. There's a reason that Citadel's terrain is generally based on 3" and 6" for distance, because it allows you to best use the terrain without running into impossible scenarios that rules block, which alternatively have a lot of sense that make it seem silly (like a jet pack unit unable to move very far... ). The rules lock you here, because the terrain was made beyond the extent of the rules, instead of with the rules in mind. So it doesn't fit when you apply tight and specific rules to an odd measured or over-sized building. Buildings can be any size you want, rule wise, but to make things easier and make things steam line, you should be using heights that are at the most, 6" increments. Horizontal spaces can be any distances you want. But Vertical distances should be highly considered and kept reasonable, otherwise, you get blocked with units like you are now, even though it seems like you should be able to do otherwise--but cannot due to the rules.

As it is, your jet pack has a 6" move, and unless there were "levels" of the same increment inside the ruin, you would not be able to move higher than 6" onto any building type that is higher than 6" (where as, jump infantry with 12" move could possibly). This is why own man Helio pointed out that Tau jet packs kind of get a hard knock here. You're limited by your 6" movement in vertical movement.

Cheers!
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Old 22 Aug 2006, 17:37   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by heliodorus04
I disagree. The CoD rules specifically state the vertical movement is restricted to the amount you may move horizontally. It does not except Jump/Jet packs from this.

In going with RAW emphasis, I believe our Jets are rather screwed, unfortunately. But that's the way I see it.

It is therefore possible, if you had a building 5 inches across, but 10 inches high, that you could jump over it while still being forbidden to land on top of it.

Folks in my area support this interpretation despite how silly it obviously appears to be. City fighting is supposed to level certain advantages, jump moves apparently being one of them.
This is all in regards to basic infantry and other footsloggers. The only time they mention jump infantry is in regard to intact buildings, and it is implied in that reference that jump infantry have no vertical restrictions. Though this seems to be another oversight by Games Workshop...
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[center]Till shade is gone,
Till water is gone,
Into the Shadow with teeth bared,
Screaming defiance with the last breath,
To spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day.

"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain"

Learn to shorten your reach! If your foe can come close enough to negate your striking power, all stratagem is lost, and when all stratagem is lost, the battle is lost.

Tell me now, is there a man among you here, is there no one who will stand up and try to fight? Tell me man, is there not one in all your ranks, is there no one who values courage over life?
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Old 22 Aug 2006, 20:05   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus
The only time they mention jump infantry is in regard to intact buildings, and it is implied in that reference that jump infantry have no vertical restrictions. Though this seems to be another oversight by Games Workshop...
With due respect, you are making an assumption of an implication, I am not. The rules don't tell you what you may not do (they would be infinitely long). They tell you what you may do. In the absence of something excepting Jump/Jet infantry from the vertical movement restriction, (I believe) the rules for vertical movement restrictions apply equally to all models.

Do I like it? No.
Do I think it's realistic? Absolutely not
(Realism doesn't matter a whit, though, just like fluff doesn't matter a whit)
Do I hope I'm wrong? Sure
But I play it that way.
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Old 23 Aug 2006, 02:20   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by heliodorus04
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus
The only time they mention jump infantry is in regard to intact buildings, and it is implied in that reference that jump infantry have no vertical restrictions. Though this seems to be another oversight by Games Workshop...
With due respect, you are making an assumption of an implication, I am not. The rules don't tell you what you may not do (they would be infinitely long). They tell you what you may do. In the absence of something excepting Jump/Jet infantry from the vertical movement restriction, (I believe) the rules for vertical movement restrictions apply equally to all models.

Do I like it? No.
Do I think it's realistic? Absolutely not
(Realism doesn't matter a whit, though, just like fluff doesn't matter a whit)
Do I hope I'm wrong? Sure
But I play it that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heliodorus04
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus
The only time they mention jump infantry is in regard to intact buildings, and it is implied in that reference that jump infantry have no vertical restrictions. Though this seems to be another oversight by Games Workshop...
With due respect, you are making an assumption of an implication, I am not. The rules don't tell you what you may not do (they would be infinitely long). They tell you what you may do. In the absence of something excepting Jump/Jet infantry from the vertical movement restriction, (I believe) the rules for vertical movement restrictions apply equally to all models.

Do I like it? No.
Do I think it's realistic? Absolutely not
(Realism doesn't matter a whit, though, just like fluff doesn't matter a whit)
Do I hope I'm wrong? Sure
But I play it that way.
You're assuming the rules applied for normal infantry apply to jump infantry. You're assumption is no less faulty than mine.

And by your interpretation, any intact building over 12" tall would be inaccesible, as you need to have sufficient movement to reach the top regardless of special equipment. Which blatantly contradicts what they have written. They wrote "models that can reach the roof of an inatact building" and give jump infantry as an example.

Also, when no rule is actually given, you have to take what is given. The only knowledge we have about jump infanty in CoD is that they can land on top of intact buildings. Is it so farfetched, then, that they could land on top of city ruins?
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[center]Till shade is gone,
Till water is gone,
Into the Shadow with teeth bared,
Screaming defiance with the last breath,
To spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day.

"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain"

Learn to shorten your reach! If your foe can come close enough to negate your striking power, all stratagem is lost, and when all stratagem is lost, the battle is lost.

Tell me now, is there a man among you here, is there no one who will stand up and try to fight? Tell me man, is there not one in all your ranks, is there no one who values courage over life?
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Old 23 Aug 2006, 06:40   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question

Jump infantry move differently to jet packs, which make a series of shorter "hops" that pause to fire between. This isn't simply a game mechanic - we take the actual model position into account when judging line of sight for the shooting phase.

A jetpack wearing model could make it to the top of a 12" building, in two hops, but would need something to touch down on in between, requiring two dangerous terrain tests.

Area terrain, such as ruins, does not actually have an in-game height, it is size 3 terrain and as such is variable to the point of being effectively infinite - nothing can see over size 3 terrain.

Intact buildings are WYSIWYG, and may or may not count as diffictult on their roof-tops depending on what rules you decide - it is perfectly possible for terrain to have several types for different parts of the same piece, or different qualities for different troop types. For example, impassible to vehicles.

You and you opponent could agree that certain terrain pieces don't count as dificult to jump packs, meaning they don't make dangerous tests.
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Old 23 Aug 2006, 06:43   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau Jump Packs and City Fights - Question

I would also add that a model with Jetpacks should only be counting the total vertical offset between its starting point and its final point. Both moves can include up to 6" of horizontal and 6" of vertical movement. But you could jump from one rooftop to another if the first rooftop was at 6" and the second was at 12", as long as the gap between them was less than 6" wide.
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