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My take on ICs with drones
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 13:44   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default My take on ICs with drones

An IC with drones:

i) Can fall back if they are lost

ii) can regroup, without a bonding knife, either when both are destroyed or character+drones have 50% starting wounds or greater combined.

iii) Doesn't take last man standing tests if drones are killed.

iv) Does NOT score, but his drones do (count up seperate elements, P.86).

v) Cannot hold objective, but his or her drones can (ditto), so effectively he or she can.

vi) Always counts as a seperate unit in hand to hand combat, IC or drones must be touching foe's base to be in fight.

vii) Does NOT have a retinue, so may only be targeted if model or drones are the closest target. This is based on the conclusion that in all the above cases IC rules are followed.

Any thoughts?

NB: Commander Shadowsun behaves differently, counting as an upgrade for her drones (see FAQ).

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Old 18 Aug 2006, 13:51   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: My take on ICs with drones

Heya,

I heavily don't agree with this one:

Quote:
vii) Does NOT have a retinue, so may only be targeted if model or drones are the closest target. This is based on the conclusion that in all the above cases IC rules are followed.
Drones form a unit with the character. Specifically stated, a unit. Independent characters that have joined or formed a unit with anything, are targetable.

Page 51 (rulebook), Shooting at Characters. That paragraph is very clear.
Page 31 (Tau Empire), Drones. Again, very clear--Characters form a unit with their drones.

This directly leads to the following:

Quote:
iv) Does NOT score, but his drones do (count up seperate elements, P.86).

v) Cannot hold objective, but his or her drones can (ditto), so effectively he or she can.
Independent characters who cannot be targeted, yet can form a unit (and remain untargetable) and hold objectives via the unit they formed?

That doesn't fly, because the point about targeting the character is not right.

Cheers!
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 14:47   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: My take on ICs with drones

That's the contraversial point, alright.

The term "unit" is also used to describe a monat, and in many cases, even an independant character, so it's not an accurate way of assessing what the rules mean. I'll come back to this.

IC never count as scoring. That much is true, even with retinues, they themselves do not score, as per p.86, 'Units with distinct elements."

According to this rule, a Shas'o does not score, but his body guard does, and hence can hold objectives unless down to one model with one wound. I apply this to drones, though they cannot be at less than half strength, by this time they will be destroyed.

As for whether a IC can be shot at, well, that's one thing we may never decide, but seeing as all other aspects of the rules for characters with drones leave IC status intact, it might be reasonable to assume so with this final point. ICs are also "units" of one character (word literally means "one piece").

What do people do, for example, with chaos lords who have hounds, or Tzeentch sorcerers with thrall wizards. That would be the same.

This is an issue everyone wants to clear up. I'm doing it by totally up all the rules, seeing that ICs remain ICs in all other instances, and suggesting that should be the case in ALL instances, therefore.

Best,
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 14:56   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: My take on ICs with drones

Chaos lords with hounds are a unit. They can be shot.

Ditto to Tzeentch sorcerers, an inquisitor with a retinue or a librarian with a familiar.

As soon as the Independent character has company with him he's no longer Independent and can be shot at.
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 14:58   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: My take on ICs with drones

I can accept that, but can you give rule-based examples from actual books?

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Old 18 Aug 2006, 15:12   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: My take on ICs with drones

so with this line, Shadowsun is a scoring unit then~... hmm... not bad. No other special characters can claim that w/o retinue
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 15:23   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: My take on ICs with drones

Well, that's open to depate. The FAQ says she counts as an upgrade for her drones, not the other way around. But the rules for scoring on p.86 say such units are worked out according to individual elements, so I would say that although her unit is scoring, no points should be gained for her. However, we don't know the points for individual parts of her unit, and she only counts as an IC if they are destroyed, so basically, yes, she scores.

I was looking at the rules for "units with distinct elements" on p86 and took it to mean that ICs don't count toward scoring, or taking objectives, but it is only victory points that are mentioned here, they do still count toward unit numbers.

This changes my point about ICs never scoring. My mistake.
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 16:32   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: My take on ICs with drones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramlin
That's the contraversial point, alright.

The term "unit" is also used to describe a monat, and in many cases, even an independant character, so it's not an accurate way of assessing what the rules mean. I'll come back to this.
Thats because a Monat is a unit and not an IC. Ive never seen any reference to ICs being called units themselves.

Quote:
According to this rule, a Shas'o does not score, but his body guard does, and hence can hold objectives unless down to one model with one wound. I apply this to drones, though they cannot be at less than half strength, by this time they will be destroyed.
The rules are permissive, just because something works with one unit does not mean its the same for another. Drones are purchased as wargear for the character with the drone controller. Thus they are wargear for the character and I would not count them as scoring however it says if they are bought for a unit then they count towards that units strength and thus scoring. However a character is different as the drones are specifically said to add to the scoring strength of a unit purchased for. But when that unit is an IC thats different.

Quote:
As for whether a IC can be shot at, well, that's one thing we may never decide, but seeing as all other aspects of the rules for characters with drones leave IC status intact, it might be reasonable to assume so with this final point. ICs are also "units" of one character (word literally means "one piece").
Again the rules are permissive unless they specifically say something is so then it is not. The rules say an IC forms a unit with the drones but then specifically says that the character can then still join others. Thus the IC does not keep his status when taking drones. Its lost and he becomes a unit but the character gets further permission to join other squads if he just has drones, thats different.

[quote]
What do people do, for example, with chaos lords who have hounds, or Tzeentch sorcerers with thrall wizards. That would be the same.
[/qoute]

Something true for one codex and one army is not necessarily true for another.

Quote:
This is an issue everyone wants to clear up. I'm doing it by totally up all the rules, seeing that ICs remain ICs in all other instances, and suggesting that should be the case in ALL instances, therefore.
Once more the rules are permissive and just because the character with drones retains some abilities from being an IC that does not mean they keep all of them.
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 17:00   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: My take on ICs with drones

That's interesting, most people I've spoken to would say that an IC with drones does score, precisely because he loses IC status.

If he makes a unit, then the unit can score.

I had thought that the rules on p.86 might seperate out the character from the rest of the unit, but this is only for purposes of victory points, as I later realised.

We need to be consistant. Either it is a "unit" in the sense of not an IC, or it is an IC. Units score. ICs don't.

On the other hand, we might look at it as a unit of two drones, which the IC has joined. In which case, he can be shot at, but does not score. However, the drones do. So, able to hold objectives.

This is quite like Shadowsun, actually, who is said to be an addtion to the drones, and not the other way around.

I agree that a precedent set in one codex is only a guide, but I have never seen the answer written down that, for instance, chaos hounds take away IC status either.

My original post is not quite right. I do think characters with drones can be targeted normally, just as if they had a retinue, and I think they can score objectives too, based on the fact that the drones are a serperate unit that they have joined.

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Old 18 Aug 2006, 17:46   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: My take on ICs with drones

Shadowsun scoring? That would make sense to me. Forced to be in a unit. According to the (absurd) FAQ they just put out, shadowsun for some reason, despite being an IC with drones, cannot join another unit ?!? In that case that would mean she's already a full unit, and thus scoring, unless all the drones are lost. The only hesitation into calling it official is that they don't specifically state it. However, the rules all pretty much call her exact situation a scoring unit, although if reduced to IC she would no longer be (as per the rules once again)...

Now as a unit, with drones you simply can be targetted. As can a Monat; its still a unit, not gaining IC status just because its alone. Another difference between the two is that an IC reduced to just itself as a single model regains IC protection, while your lone remaining broadside would take last-man-standing after his buddies or drones went down. One gains massive protection... the other rolls or runs off the board!

Regular IC with drones I'm not sure about however. since the drones in that case are the upgrades FOR the character, its the other way around isn't it? They're just wargear.
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