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A fool's Devilfish
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 13:33   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default A fool's Devilfish

Ever noticed that the Troop-slot entry in the codex for Devilfish has a slightly different page border to the infantry troops the word "transport" is printed on the backdrop?

Some fools, on that forum which I shall not name, have been trying to argue that because of this page layout difference, Devilfish are not actually troops and can only be chosen as dedicated transport. They seem to think that "transport is a category, rather than an ability.

No one actually plays this, do they? Just like all other armies, as per the rules on p.62, transports can be dedicated or provide ad-hoc transportation, in which case they take up an army slot.

It made me a bit mad to encounter such pettiness, but I'm cooling off now, and I still think the rule-book is right. Odd that.
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 13:42   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: A fool's Devilfish

Devilfish aren't troops, they're vehicles. They are purchased for a FW or PF squad as their DEDICATED transport. You can't just purchase a DF & not have a squad to put in it.

The Ad-Hoc units you are referring to are for vehicles like Land Raiders or Falcons which are actually taken as part of the FOC, but have the ability to transport troops. Since they are both heavy support options, they are not dedicated transports & therefore can transport whatever models you want to put in them @ any time.

~Sunscreem

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Old 18 Aug 2006, 13:47   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: A fool's Devilfish

See the entry for chaos rhino, which reads, "Transport: Chaos Rhino" but is listed under Elites in the chaos codex.

Are you saing it's the same for chaos rhinos? If so why are they under elites?
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 13:53   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: A fool's Devilfish

Also worth noting: Hammerhead are "Vehicle" type too. This does not mean they aren't heavy support.
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 14:02   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: A fool's Devilfish

Rhino's, Chimera's, DF, WS, are all dedicated transports, regardless of where they appear in the codex. Chimera's, Rhino's & LR's are all in the Daemonhunters codex under fast attack, yet none of them are fast attack.

The transports are placed in the codex in such a way as to let you know that you can take that transport, for that troop.

The entry reads "TRANSPORT". It's not a seperate entity on it's own. Even in the Tau codex it says "Transport: Devilfish troop carrier", not "Devilfish: Light tank".

It's a transport & must be purchased for a squad, not just out there on it's own. I really think you're trying to read way too far into the 'hidden meaning' as it were. HH's are vehicles, yes, but they are a recognized part of the FOC as heavy support. Devilfish can be purchased for FW (Troop FOC) & for PF (FA FOC), yet they are listed under the Troop section of the codex, so by that logic you would have to agree that PF can't take them, since they're TROOPS. Of course this is not the case as DF are mandatory for PF.
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 14:04   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: A fool's Devilfish

Heya,

This has been exhaustively argued, and all of the contents are here in the following thread (the last one that happened on this subject):

[size=12pt]http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=20802.0[/size]

If you think you can buy a Transport as a Troop or anything else, on it's own, non-dedicated, be prepared for some feedback that you will not like.

Page 77 in the rulebook, "Choose Forces" explains how you build an army list and what an army list is composed of. You will notice, there is no slot for transports.

In order for a unit to be a legal choice in the force organizational chart, it must be an HQ, Elite, Troop, Fast Attack or Heavy Support choice. These choices are listed in the codex, next to their relevant entry and/or unit entry. The Tau codex has them clearly written next to each and every unit. In our Tau codex, it is written vertically next to each and every unit:

Commander (bottom left, HQ)
Body Guards (bottom left, HQ)
Ethereal (bottom right, HQ)
Crisis Suits (bottom left, Elites)
Stealths (bottom right, Elites)
FireWarriors (bottom left, Troops)
Devilfish (bottom left, [u]Transport[u])
Kroot (bottom right, Troops)
GunDrones (bottom left, Fast Attack)
Pathfinders (bottom left, Fast Attack)
Piranha (bottom right, Fast Attack)
Vespid (bottom right, Fast Attack)
Broadside (bottom left, Heavy Support)
Sniper Drones (bottom left, Heavy Support)
Hammerhead (bottom right, Heavy Support)
SkyRay (bottom right, Heavy Support)

The Devilfish is not an entry on the force organizational chart. It is a transport. Not a troop, not a fast attack, not a heavy. It is a Transport. And as such, can only be chosen by a unit with a profile option that allows them to buy a transport.

The RuleBook is very clear that there are two types of Transports. Dedicated and non-Dedicated. Dedicated are always purchased for a unit. It doesn't matter where it came from. If it's purchased for a unit because of a profile option, it's dedicated. Non-dedicated types are rare in this game, and always show up in the codex listed as a Heavy Support of some kind. Always. They are not labeled as transports, because they are a Heavy Support choice--it is written on their profile option. It should not be so confusing to make the distinction, graphically, with text, nor with rules on this particular subject.

There are no legal armies out there, comprised of just Devilfish and Hammerheads. There are no pure Waveserpent and Falcon armies. There are no pure Rhino, Razorback and Predator armies. There are no pure Chimera armies. There are no Wartruck armies. Why don't these armies exist? Why haven't they been ripping up the touranments in low point games, where they would be so grossly overpowered that it would break the competition? Why don't they exist? Where are they? They don't exist. They're not legal.

Cheers!

[hr]

Edit:

[size=12pt]
This thread has been unlocked again. But it may be only temporary depending on how civil it remains. Mind you, this thread is being watched closely. Keep it clean. Keep it polite. If this thread seems to boil down into a Trolling, Flaming, etc, war like the threads before it, it will be locked down again.

All should consider this your first warning.

Happy Posting
[/size]
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 15:19   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: A fool's Devilfish

I would like to explore the reason why some Transports are put under Troops in some codexes, some are put under Elites in others, but units from different categories can take them as dedicated transports.

My belief is that Space Marines can, if they wish, sacrifice an elite slot in order to have the small advantage of a non-dedicated rhino. It would be senseless to put it in Elites otherwise.


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Old 18 Aug 2006, 15:27   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: A fool's Devilfish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramlin
I would like to explore the reason why some Transports are put under Troops in some codexes, some are put under Elites in others, but units from different categories can take them as dedicated transports.

My belief is that Space Marines can, if they wish, sacrifice an elite slot in order to have the small advantage of a non-dedicated rhino. It would be senseless to put it in Elites otherwise.
By that same logic, the Ork codex would only be able to take a Transport: Wartrukk as an HQ choice.

Where it is placed in a codex, varies from codex to codex. But they are always labeled as Transports.

Why do Eldar players bother buying Guardians and not just immediately buy the Waveserpent?
Why are there no 6 Devilfish, 3 hammerhead 1,000 point armies out there?
Why are there no pure Dark Eldar Raider armies with anywhere from 6 to 14 raiders and 3 Ravagers in 1,000 points?

They're all labeled as Transports and can't do it.
Why are these pure super transport armies not winning touranments?
Becuase it's simply not legal.

Cheers!
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 15:40   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: A fool's Devilfish

I haven't gone through all the Codexes to say this definitively, so someone else who's got a whole bunch can go and check if they like, but is it possible that a "Transport" is simply listed with with whatever the first unit in the Codex that can take it? The DF HAS to go with the PFs, but it's listed after FWs, seemingly because the FWs' description mentions the FWs first.
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Old 18 Aug 2006, 15:47   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: A fool's Devilfish

Honestly, Mal, I think this should be locked. We had a TauOnline DevilFish War 1. We don't need TauOnline DevilFish War 2.

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