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Cheesy Eldar???
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 22:57   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Default Cheesy Eldar???

As I have mentioned elsewhere in the boards, my general opponents are DA SM, Altioc Rangers & Ulthwe Eldar. The Eldar is played by the same person, just depends on how he's feeling that day as to which army I face.

Well, last night he shows up @ the house ready to throw down w/ his Ulthwe. He said he was trying out a new army composition. We start throwing dice & we find out that we're playing a seek & destroy mission & he's going first. When deployment starts, he tells me he has no HS to deploy. I was like what??!

Till I realized that EVERY foot troop in his army (all 5 of them; Seer's council, 2 5 man teams of Wraithguard & 2 10 man teams of Black guardians)were in Wave Serpents.

Maybe I'm being a little to over-critical of the list (& he did beat me, but I had fun playing against the army, it was quite challenging, heh), but I felt that was just a bit much. Not to mention I had to face a fully tooled up squad of vipers as well.

There were some deployment foul-ups & he did get to go first, but I did feel it was more than a little cheesy. He made quick work of my 3 HH's & my squad of pirahna's in short order, but even w/ him not crippling that, I would have had a terribly hard time countering all those WS's.

Would any of you guys had cried cheese too?

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Old 09 Aug 2006, 23:49   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Cheesy Eldar???

Unfortunately its all legal. I'm not sure WHAT craftworld armies lose for their extra abilities, since the troops gained/lost supposedly *cough* even out... But yeah, all those guys can take a waveserpent.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 00:52   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Cheesy Eldar???

Where's the cheese?

mounting all firewarriors in devilfishes is routine practice for many tau players now. Rhino Rush for Blood Angels also gets tossed around quite a lot. Anyone who plays dark eldar mounts everyone in raiders.

So what's the problem? You can only complain that the army was custom-tailored to kick your ass, and you didn't get a chance (or didn't have the models) to custom tailor him right back.
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Anyways, just because we have already had someone who called it:
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 01:50   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Cheesy Eldar???

That's an easy list to beat. Load up on Missile pods, and Ion cannons and you would be fine.

Also putting your FWs in DF is a good idea.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 02:03   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Cheesy Eldar???

Cheese? Hardly.

Five Wave Serpents is quite scary, confessedly - but no worse than a trio of Hammerheads. Mech Tau armies commonly sport 5+ tanks, and universal mechanization. Personally, I think the list was on the lower end - Wraithguard are nothing to brag about in their current state, and there's a limit to what you can do with Guardians.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 02:30   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Cheesy Eldar???

Listen, I've been thrashed by eldar multiple times. By Alaitoc (not Altioc - I dislike it when people get that wrong) and Saim Hann, as well as Iyanden. Y'know what I cried? Good game. Eldar can't be cheesy. No matter what they do, they can be beaten just like every other army. You just need to figure out how.

For instance, do you know what thrashes alaitoc? Mechanized armies. Without any troops, you kill their disruption.

As for the Ulthwe army, had you gotten the first turn it would've been likely very different. You would've downed 3+ of his tanks, and you'd have the upper hand for the rest of the game.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 02:44   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Cheesy Eldar???

I have to second that - this is a rather weak example of a Mech Eldar list, a list that itself is pretty much the paradigm of what the Eldar are supposed to be. Wraithguard are awful (to put them in perspective, we're expecting them to get no more expensive and to pick up an extra point of S and T, with a better gun), Black Guardians in a transport are no more damaging than are Fire Warriors, and a Seer Council, while nasty, isn't that big a deal unless you've got Suits (especially Broadsides) with Shield Drones running around.


Basically, he had 5 tanks, with a total of 5 weapons in some combination of Starcannons and Bright Lances. You had 3 Hammerheads, at least 2 Piranhas, and probably some Devilfish.

If there's a problem here, it's that your list is too geared towards taking out Marines and big vehicles. How many Missile Pods do you have? Generally speaking, I expect to see at least three or four in an all-comers list. Those, in addition to your three Railguns, are generally going to be quite capable of dealing with all of that AV12, even if the Energy Fields make your Railguns a bit less effective.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 02:58   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Cheesy Eldar???

i didnt know wraith guard could take wave serpents as a transport.

Seer council isn't effective in the tank, personally the longer they're on the field with augment/mindwar is when they are at the worst. 36 inch leadership based wounds. even both rolling ones he deals 2 wounds(currently), and I dont think saves are allowed. having 2 of them that can do that?
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 14:05   #9 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Cheesy Eldar???

I suppose maybe I'm in the minority here, but I personally really kinda fear Wraithguard. They have a very short effective range, but they have a pretty substantial weapon.

I'll give you guys my army list for that night, I actually thought it was pretty well rounded.

Shas'o - PR, MP, CIB, HWMT, Stims

3 Fireknives

2 Burning eye's

6 SS's all w/ TA

3 12 man FW squads, all in DF

3 Pirahna all w/ FB (first time using them, in the future, I'll be leaving them armed w/ BC's)

2 Ionheads & a Railhead

I'm all about mech-tau, as you can see, so I don't feel that's of any relevance. Looking back @ it, I probably should have taken more MP's, I took the Burning Eye's to ward off the WG & they just weren't doing it. They didn't come in till turn 4 & then even w/ the twin-link'ing they shot their feet off. :/

I know lots of other armies have their version of the mech list. I've faced the rhino rush, the raider rush, etc, but all those transports are PAPER. They fall to pulse fire. The WS is a WAY tougher nut to crack, its actually very rare that I'm able to take more than one or two down a game when I play that eldar army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealMenUseCarbines
Where's the cheese?

mounting all firewarriors in devilfishes is routine practice for many tau players now. Rhino Rush for Blood Angels also gets tossed around quite a lot. Anyone who plays dark eldar mounts everyone in raiders.

So what's the problem? You can only complain that the army was custom-tailored to kick your D'yi, and you didn't get a chance (or didn't have the models) to custom tailor him right back.
DF, Rhino's, Raiders, etc., don't have TL BL (or option of TL starcannons). They don't have an energy field that makes all weapons STR unless already lower. They don't nullify melta-weapons 2D6 rule on front or side arcs. On top of the fact that it's a fast skimmer. NO ONE has a transport that gnarly. Maybe a Landraider, but not by much.

I really just have a problem w/ the WS in all reality. It's almost better than the Falcon. It can transport more, but it doesn't have a TL shuriken catapult or pulse laser. But it has all the afore mentioned goodies for WAY less than a falcon & is just as scary.

And I don't care that I got beat, it wasn't by much & I've been beaten before, I'll be beaten again. There's always someone better. I guess it all comes down to I really wasn't expecting to be facing anything like that & I feel the transport is a bit overpowered for what it should be.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 14:18   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Cheesy Eldar???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmdr Sunscreem
DF, Rhino's, Raiders, etc., don't have TL BL (or option of TL starcannons). They don't have an energy field that makes all weapons STR unless already lower. They don't nullify melta-weapons 2D6 rule on front or side arcs. On top of the fact that it's a fast skimmer. NO ONE has a transport that gnarly. Maybe a Landraider, but not by much.

I really just have a problem w/ the WS in all reality. It's almost better than the Falcon. It can transport more, but it doesn't have a TL shuriken catapult or pulse laser. But it has all the afore mentioned goodies for WAY less than a falcon & is just as scary.
"Gnarly"? "WAY less"? That's totally untrue. A Wave Serpent is a powerfull vehicle, but the Dakka of Autocannons, Missile Pods, Ion Cannons, and the like are things that it fears. Wave Serpents are the elite of transports, but as such they are costed appropriately - a 'Serpent with Lances or Starcannons costs two and a half times as much as a stock Rhino - meaning that what the Eldar pay to transport 10 models, Marines can move 25 with.

Also, keep in mind that had you gotten turn one, you would have massacred his vehicles - yesterday I had a Railhead blow my Serpent to shreds before I had a chance to move it and unlike the Tau, Eldar can't reroll those glancing 5's or count as being obscured.

And Wave Serpents DO have a Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapult as backup weaponry, so you know...
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