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Skimmer Hovering rules
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 12:07   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Skimmer Hovering rules

At my local GW the guy said that skimmers automaticly see over terrain and can be seen over terrrain; in the rulebook it just says that they don't get obscured target benefits. How do you think it works, can they hide behind buildings and can they see over area terrain?

Thanks

-drodgers
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 12:11   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Skimmer Hovering rules

Skimmers count as Size 3, it says somewhere in the rulebook... (Other tanks count as Size 2)

So it would follow the rules for height with terrain sizes etc.

[hr]

Edit: Perhaps I have that insanely wrong. I do recall reading it somewhere in the rulebook, and I've found the bit about it not getting the benefits of obscured targets.. but can't find much else :S Ignore that until I can back it up with a rules reference...


Edit: Oh. It was right there infront of me. Rulebook page 7 - Size 3: Large Targets - Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures. It's not just skimmers, it's all vehicles. Thus I was wrong about other tanks counting as Size 2. :s (School and HSC is really having it's effects :s)
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 12:32   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Skimmer Hovering rules

Here is something I've done with my skimmers, but I don't know if it's legal. I know skimmers hover over terrain, so as a method of avoiding some melta gun fire I place my HH on the third story of a building, this put him about 12" high, so the enemy couldn't fire their melta gun and get the 2d6 armor penetration without first climing to at least the second floor. From up top my HH was able to control the whole field. Is this legal???
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 13:46   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Skimmer Hovering rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by drodgers
At my local GW the guy said that skimmers automaticly see over terrain and can be seen over terrrain; in the rulebook it just says that they don't get obscured target benefits. How do you think it works, can they hide behind buildings and can they see over area terrain?

Thanks

-drodgers
This thread, will be valuable to you: >> Link <<

Skimmers do not automatically see over all terrain and are not automatically seen over terrain par contrary. Skimmers follow the exact same rules for vehicles, when it comes to moving behind terrain. The difference is, skimmers can ignore terrain while moving but only then (page 61). Notice, this only applies to moving, not shooting, not enemy shooting. Just moving.

You have a special option, a choice, when using skimmers called Hovering. You do not automatically hover with skimmers. You must announce and make it clear that you are going to use Hovering. When you claim hovering, you are claiming that you're skimmer is high up and that it can end it's move over any difficult or impassible terrain (but not over other models). In this state, you still are subject to normal line of sight to shoot your weapons at enemy targets. You gain no real benefit from hovering, in terms of shooting. However, your enemy does gain benefits for shooting at you. You can never count yourself as an obscured target if you hover.

Normally, you would rarely ever use Hovering. It's merely there for those "in case" times, when you may need it. You would typically use it to move somewhere, and end your move over what is normally impassible terrain (which normally would near destroy you if you tried to end a move in it). Instead, you just hover in that situation, but you risk being shot more often by your opponent.

Normally, you wouldn't want to use hovering. Normally you'd want to keep your skimmer using standard rules, so that you can hide behind terrain or in terrain. Hovering pretty much prevents that, so that you can do something else.

Again, your GW boys need to read page 61. You choose to hover. Skimmers are not automatically hovering. And there are no rules which state that the skimmer can see over terrain. They're literally, just making that up. It's not written, anywhere.

[hr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by israfel420
Here is something I've done with my skimmers, but I don't know if it's legal. I know skimmers hover over terrain, so as a method of avoiding some melta gun fire I place my HH on the third story of a building, this put him about 12" high, so the enemy couldn't fire their melta gun and get the 2d6 armor penetration without first climing to at least the second floor. From up top my HH was able to control the whole field. Is this legal???
Good question. The rules for hovering specifically state you may not use hovering over other models. So it's a matter of where the enemy models were, where your hammerhead really was, and how the building was laid out. You'd have to explain it more, because think of this: (A) you cannot end a move over the models, when hovering (specific), (B) were you moving fast when you ended your move and (C) if the unit could fire on you, which armor facing was the nearest. This is important because, if you were hovering, you cannot claim obscured target, which means, if you were not moving fast, then the building will not count as obscuring you for the purpose of that meltagun popping you and the armor facing would be important to know, for the Str8 value and that AP1. Side armor or the vulnerable rear armor would be dangerous. Lots of things you'd have to explain to really get an answer as to what you were doing.

A unit with a meltagun, probably could still manage to fire on you even with melta range. The 2D6 would be out of range (within 6" is hard even on the ground), but the shot would still be manageable. A unit which moves up and down may do so the same distance as their move. So if they moved 6" into the building, they can then move 6" up (same move). That puts them very close. Not close enough for 2D6, but close enough to still give you a shot. Really though, the rules involved with this aren't well described in standard 40k. City Fight rules would be better. Because the idea of shooting through a building with a meltagun is also something that is better described in City Fight (as in, what kind of terrain you were treating the building as).

Cheers!
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 15:49   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Skimmer Hovering rules

Wouldn't the skimmer (looking at page 61) have no trouble firing "through" since its got line of sight also? I can see how this would be useful if that terrain's too thick to hide behind and shoot through, for example. If you're far enough from the enemy, this could let you stick over some clump of trees way in the back and use your new vantage-point for line-of-sight?
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 16:14   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Skimmer Hovering rules

Okay, I'm gonna admit that I"m too darn lazy to read Mal's link above, but the rest of you should!

I come from a tabletop wargamer's background, with cardboard counters and "color" used to differentiate terrain heights. They have really good rules for working out "blind spots" and things of that nature, because they have to.

Warhammer does NOT have that at all.

Here are the basic problems with 40K height:

Is there anything "above" size 3?
The rulebook doesn't exactly say. What it does say is that if you're on a piece of terrain, you add your own model's height to the terrain piece's height to determine your visibility stature.

But is there a size 4? If I'm a size 3 model on a size 3 piece of terrain, am I size 6?

That's completely undefined. And there are vast consequences to the notion of whether terrain stops at size 3 or whether it goes higher, and all players should seek out a standard before each game, because Line of Sight is the most important part of any game's rules, really. In the military there is a proverb: "If you can be seen you can be hit, if you can be hit you can be killed."

The trick to living is not to be seen So know ahead of time what "blocks" line of sight.

In my local area we have two schools of thought on the existence of Size 4+ terrain. In both cases, we acknowledge that size 4 doesn't really exist at all, but there is a bit of a "size 3+" line of sight advantage.

If a model of size 3 is on top of a size 3 piece of terrain, we either say you can see "over and beyond" all other size 3 pieces of terrain (nothing can hide from you) or you can't see at all over any size 3 piece of terrain (in this case, size 3 is "infinitely high" and your model is always just a little below the other pieces of size 3 terrain.

I actually prefer the latter, because a table you can't hide on sucks. We also have a third in-between way where you can see over hills, but nothing else (not woods, not buildings) which is weird and less consistent, but as long as I know ahead of time which type of person I'm playing, I'm fine with it.

After my very first tournament, I was talking about a loss I had where my opponent and I discussed terrain, and I recognized that the way he and I chose to define it worked against me, and for him. I didn't know any better. Someone responded that I lost the "foreplay round" of terrain definition.

You should always define all terrain effects and LOS standards before you set up a single model - before you decide on scenario and side, even, because that definition affects tactics more than anything else - moreso even than who you are playing against and what army you play.

Learn different ways of defining it, too, so you can adapt when you go to new places and play people who have different standards.
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 17:39   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Skimmer Hovering rules

The way Ive always interpreted this is like this:

Those skimmer/terrain rules pertain to a certain situation: when a skimmer ends its movement in area terrain, like a forest, or a building ruin.

Now, this skimmer has a choice as the model moves over the felt green path (representing woods), or over the rubble template of a ruin.... it can either:

A) plow through the terrain, gaining cover benefits (obscured target), and limiting LOS (6" Rule), but at the risk of a dangerous terrain test

B) Hover over the terrain, getting no cover benefits, while not risking getting immobilized (and to a fast moving skimmer, immobilized means death), and also being in plain site to everyone on the board.


Some key points of note is

- that a skimmer behind area terrain that blocks LOS is still out of sight.
- That a transport hovering over area terrain can still deploy troops into that terrain

And with the Tau Empire release, one change is added to this situation: Sensor Spines make plowing through terrain a lot less dangeous, and therefore a more viable option, but as of yet no tactical gems for doing this has been revealed or discovered. That doesnt mean there arent any, just that no one has thought about it hard or clear headed enough yet.
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Old 09 Aug 2006, 17:42   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Skimmer Hovering rules

Well since their so high then I would think that they would have no problen shooting since their already high enough. Unless there is a gigantic mountain in front of it or the model is so close to the side where you cant see it then you cant shoot. there is also somthing in the codex about skimmers and being obscured targets and stuff. I don't know what it is or does. Its under upgrades though.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 10:27   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Skimmer Hovering rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by .mace
Skimmers count as Size 3, it says somewhere in the rulebook... (Other tanks count as Size 2)
Where does it say that? I can't find it (I'll need to try and convince the GW guy).

Thanks for your help.

-drodgers


[size=smaller]Edit: I added to my post before, I was wrong about the last bit - mace[/size]
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 13:06   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Skimmer Hovering rules

Page 7 of 4th Edition rules:

"Model Height

Size 1: small targets (see page 75)
Size 2: Standard targets. Basically every model not included in either of the other categories.
Size 3: LARGE targets. Includes Monstrous Creatures and vehicles."

But more valuable to the initial poster is page 61 of 4th Edition (just like MalVeauX said):

"Skimmers are capable of making a powered boost to gain height and cross obstacles. As such, skimmers ignore terrain altogether when they move and can even end their move hovering over difficult or impassable terrain (but not over other models). Conversely, mobile skimmers never count obscured target benefits from terrain they are hovering over, instead relying on speed for their protection."
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