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Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make Stealth Suits ineffective?
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 23:42   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make Stealth Suits ineffective?

Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make VX-25's ineffective?

After all, even if you can judge distance perfectly, and jump back to a perfect 24", he'll be capable of moving forward with assault weapons and still be at 18" which is under an average roll for stealth.

Even if they make their stealth check 50% of the time, they'll still lose a lot from a low tougness.

What is the verdict?
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Old 06 Aug 2006, 23:53   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make VX-25's ineffective

Stealths are never my opponent's piority target. Why? Because he is too busy dealing with my other units blowing the hell out of him to really consentrate on my stealths. Usually, I like to DS them or in worse case seneriors, I will infiltrate them. Usually, if I DS them, something expensive dies (ex. a Basilisk harrassing my FW, or a bunch of GK termies (I wiped out a whole unit in 1 turn before)). Once that happens, my opponent pionts every gun at them and in the next 2 turns, they die. But so what? That would have saved my Hammerhead/Broadsides from 5 lascannon shots.
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Old 07 Aug 2006, 00:02   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make VX-25's ineffective

Long answer: Yes.
Short answer: No.

See, the burst cannon is a storm bolter. Except it an additional point of strength and an additional shot, in exchange for 6" of distance. In all respects, for something a guy in a small, non-space-marine suit can run, sneak and fly around with, its a pretty damn good gun.

Now as long as the chance of whiffing entirely due to a stealthfield is above 50% or so your opponent (usually) won't bother firing if he can aim at something else. Part of this is psychological too: No one likes having even a 33% chance of "not-even-getting-to-fire".

Mind you I said FIRING... The best way to down something with a stealth-field is to assault it, and there ARE a few things capable of hitting'em from 24" away. Rare, but its a possibility. Far more common is 18" (whether 12 move 6 charge or vice versa), which the JSJ lets you stay just out of range of. These ARE suits we're talking about though, so a 36% increase in survivability is nothing to sneeze at. They know this, we know this, and this lets us breathe far easier... usually.

This does mean we have to dance and use terrain as much as we can or risk our suits primary defense being near useless. Rangesnipe or harrass/pincer with'em and you'll be fine... but always dance on the BC's range limit, never closer I'd say. With the pulse-statline, nothing short of a tank is actually safe from a pack of stealth-suits, and after the first few times people really do start to 'appreciate' (the best kind; involving many four-letter-words censored on these forums). Whether 'Fex, rhino/landspeeder/piranha, Wraithlord or a ton of orks, we simply can't say it can't get the job done. Vicious little bastards, those stealth-suit teams, and I have to say I'm glad I don't have to go against'em regularly.

Where burst cannons fall short is vehicles. Like I said earlier; storm bolter with shorter range but better firepower. Where's the heavy? Nowhere to be found. And I don't feel anywhere near remotely comfortable bringing a tank within 18" of ANYTHING. 24" with SMS if hidden behind cover? even then... my railheads carry drones. Its a good gun if you're a footsoldier... but I'd easily imagine this thing being pintle-mounted on a piranha, with a REAL gun fixed to the fuselage.
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Old 07 Aug 2006, 00:42   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make VX-25's ineffective

Heya,

The range of the burst cannon doesn't make a stealth suit ineffective, anymore than a plasma rifle at rapid-fire range makes a crisis suit ineffective. There's no global way to simply lump the unit other than "anti-infantry." Otherwise, the actual effectiveness of the unit is going to be based on your opponent and the mission at hand. Shooting with them, is not always their primary function in a game. They're very good at guarding their own victory points and you can make them very effective without ever firing a single shot.

Anyhow, some examples:

Tyranid - The effective range of the Stealth Suits will definitely make them a bother. The stealth fields are not so hot either, since most shooting attacks from Tyranid are either low on range, inaccurate, or very long range and hard hitting, but without any significant AP value. The burst cannon is without a doubt very effective at hosing weenie Gaunts and even mighty Genestealers and their brethren. The problem is, the exchange is the danger of the assault phase. Things that move as fast as the bug can capture and hold Stealths in assault. And while a 3+ save can go a long way, it doesn't hold up to things that bugs are good at brining to the table, such as Rending claws and mass numbers of attacks, let alone the Monstrous Creatures. That doesn't mean stealths are ineffective. It just means they're useful to do other things, than take the front line of fire on your bug opponent. Instead, stealths are rather good at infiltrating into table quarters, holding objectives, etc, whilst not being shot at nor assaulted at that range. And should any unit make a divergence from the horde to come after your victory point guarding unit, they happen to have a lot of dice to roll at them, to help combat that threat--so long as it isn't anything obviously more powerful, such as a full on Tyrant.

Eldar - The effective range is just fine. Eldar can move quickly, but they will not be able to assault you. And if they shoot you, well, they're shooting at BS3 accuracy, with Str3 weapons typically. You will be able to withstand quite a torrent, given your 3+ saves. Even the stealth field will help eliminate that problem, half the time, and sometimes less than that. In assault, we're not exactly completely helpless as Stealths. We have higher strength, a solid number of attacks and good armor. A few stealths can throw punches against Guardians and some other Eldar infantry quite well. The obvious place you don't want to be, is facing down Banshees or Scorpions, however. The key is to simply pay attention to what you're shooting at. It's merely the difference of wasting shots at a Wraithlord, or gunning down the droves of concealed Guardians and their starcannons or lances. The stealths are rather well equipped to avoid the ranged attacks of things like Reapers and Walkers and Wraiths. That's quite an advantage, while you have a very good mobility and a weapon which can completely trash minor Eldar skimmers that are open-topped as well as maul aspects such as Warp Spyders with low model count squads.

Space Marines - The range is fine, the weapon is great (one of the better Meq killers, statistically) and the ability to avoid lascannons is always a plus. We have to be wary though, of things like Jump Pack Chaplains, or Bike units as well as Assault Marines and very importantly, Land Speeders. Another problem can be the Drop Pod, allowing a stream of plasma to suddenly be right next to you, where you thought you were safe. Stealths are great at what they do, but often times, are better at being your objective taker and being used for guarding victory points rather than getting aggressive. It greatly depends on the marine player, obviously, since if he lacks any fast moving assault units, you will have a clear advantage with your stealths.

Forces of Chaos - This can be very much like the Space Marines, for the very same reasons. However, it's important to note that Chaos has many units which work very much like Tyranid. So you have to worry about the shooting units, the fast moving assault units and the even faster assault units. You may chuckle at the idea, but Chaos Hounds, Furies, Daemonettes on Steeds and the fearsome Daemonic Speed Chaos HQs are extremely potent dangers to your stealths. This is of course, on top of the abilities of the Raptors, Bikes and Flying Possessed. The range of the burst cannon can be a blessing against certain armies, like Tzeentch and/or Khorne. Where the return fire will be more minimal. On the other hand, the burst cannon's range can be a problem for daemon rich armies and fast moving armies in Chaos, as well, as a force running the daemonic speed HQ, which is specifically there to take out your Stealths. Another thing to watch out for, where range really hurts, is the fact that daemon summoning can ruin your day. While you made the perfect jump move, to keep out of effective gun range (over the 50% mark), that very same unit can summon Daemons, which could scatter forward just a tad, may move the turn they arrive, and may assault you. Even a standard infantry movement daemon pack can wind up in assault with you, simply due to the nature of scatter. Stealths will often times, be a better victory point guard, than linesman.

Imperial Guard - The range is wonderful. Guard are not known for mobility, unless they're mechanized. Against mechanized guard, of course the Stealths are less effective, both losing potential targets and losing the mobility upper hand. The weapon however, the burst cannon, is literally similar to a gatling plasma rifle that just melts away guardsmen of all kinds. Some important things to look out for, would be Rough Riders though, who with a single change can easily flatten the stealths (even with cover, allowing the I10). Otherwise, we're talking about something similar to Eldar infantry in terms of over all damage coming to you. Otherwise, the only thing to be wary of, would be mobilized units with plasma and even flamers, or drop trooping units (or simply deeps triking units).

Inquisition - Simply put, the phrase "good game" applies quite well here. Stealths are very effective against Inquisition armies. The only true threat, comes in the form of the officio assassinorum operatives--the assassins. The only things to truly be fret, will be the Eversor and the Callidus assassins. The rest of the army, is either very much in your favor, or simply an allied version of a space marine or imperial guard unit.

Necrons - Necrons aren't known for speed in assault, outside of Wraiths and Scarabs. Well, the Stealth happens to be very good at killing Wraiths and Scarabs--better than plasma against Wraiths. The Necron list lacks a very large portion of low AP punch power. And the units which have the highest powered guns and move quickly, generally wouldn't be used to go after Stealths. So the stealths are very well versed for simply picking away at those WBB rolls until something good happens. The things to be wary of, will be the Destroyer Body Lord that will be untargetable which will literally destroy you in close combat (T6 and ignores all saves possible), Wraiths which you fail to gun down before assault occurs and Scarabs which hold you in assault without being softened up first. And of course, the problem of a Veil attack. Otherwise, against most units in the Necron list, your weapons will be very well equipped for gunning down their units, and your stealth fields will serve you well against many forms of gauss.

Orks - The range of the burst cannon and the hampered shooting abilities of Orks, makes for Stealths to be a rather well equipped Ork slayer. There are problems of course, if we run into mobs that are mounted in Trukks (though we can actually gun down said Trukks!) or if there are Bikes (and when are there not one or the other?), let alone jump pack equipped Orks, coming down on you. So while we are great at killing Orks, we can have mighty amounts of trouble should they lock us in combat with a fast moving unit, long enough for the tide to shamble up and swallow us. In doing so, we also provide the mobs with a turn of "cease fire" as we cannot gun down the 30+ models who are now locked in assault with our 4 stealths or so, and the rest of our army is unable to fire upon that massive green spot. Stealths are good, but really, if the opponent has speed, you do not want to have something up close enough to give massive tempo boosts such as that, to your opponent. Guarding victory points, is just as if not more effective in that sort of case.

-- So is the short range burst cannon a problem? Not at all. But it does call for an intelligent use of them. They're not right for every target of course, but not based on their ability to kill; based on their ability to be around next turn to keep the kettle on.

-- Are stealths useless if they're not able to shoot? Not at all. Stealths are very good at being a scoring unit at the end of the game. You can avoid indirect fire weapons more easily, you can infiltrate or deep strike into remove locations, you will be difficult to fire upon from any kind of range, and any attempt of your opponent to go after stealths, that doesn't have any kind of luck in his favor, can turn out to be a major turn loss of tempo for them, giving you quite a bit of advantage.

Cheers!

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Old 07 Aug 2006, 01:19   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make Stealth Suits ineffective

So I guess, in the end it depends on what unit they face whether or not the range becomes a major issue, but anything that moves fast and/or has an assault class range weapon can be a threat.

This is good, since their JSJ usually allows them to be the to pick the fight, and should therefore pick enemies that can't surplant their stealth ability.. I like the idea of using em as a points guardian, as they defend themselves quite well. Thats a good example of having Prioity in Target Aquisition
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Old 07 Aug 2006, 01:27   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make Stealth Suits ineffective

Never depend on the stealth field. Sure, it is fluffy and useful sometimes, but would an assault GK army rely on Aegis? Hell no.

Always use terrain or whatever to hide your stealths.

Tau. Hiding from your pathetic firepower because we can!

Stealth suits are like Firewarriors on crack, and I mean that in the best way possible. Take them and use them, they are well balanced and effective.
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Old 07 Aug 2006, 02:21   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make Stealth Suits ineffective

Malveaux- no problems with your response bar 1 thing-

Quote:
(even with cover, allowing I10)
If I recall the Tau codex correctly, Stealth Suits get a special bonus from the stealth field stating that if they are charged, they recieve I10 regardless of whether or not they are actually in cover.
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Old 07 Aug 2006, 02:39   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make Stealth Suits ineffective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue 7
Malveaux- no problems with your response bar 1 thing-

Quote:
(even with cover, allowing I10)
If I recall the Tau codex correctly, Stealth Suits get a special bonus from the stealth field stating that if they are charged, they recieve I10 regardless of whether or not they are actually in cover.
That's exactly the reference that was being made. If assaulted, they will have I10 on that first round of combat (it uses the rules of being in cover). This is quite a nice bonus for our Stealthy friends.

The problem with it, is that units with frag grenades or equivalents can still be rather effective. And units that do not have frag grenades, can still be very effective, even when the stealths have their I10 bonus (due to the low WS value) over them.

Cheers!
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Old 07 Aug 2006, 03:19   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make Stealth Suits ineffective?

When my cousin and I used some stealths against my younger counsin feilding a Eldar army, the stealths would mow down any gurdian in the way and was always a a thorn in his side. It was a huge celabration for him every time he killed one.

Stealths are a harassment unit and should be used as such. I have always used them as a separate unit and almost never include them in the grand scheme except to contest table quarters and cause chaos. Stealth suits aren't a main battle line kind of a units and fare badly when ever I have played them as such. Keep them JSJing and contesting table quarters and deployment zones.
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Old 07 Aug 2006, 04:06   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does the short range of a Burst Cannon make Stealth Suits ineffective?

I've seen burst cannons chop up gaunts and blow up tanks from the side.

As for thier range well...at least it isn't 12".
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