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Are broadsides underpowered?
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Old 29 Jul 2006, 11:02   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Are broadsides underpowered?

I know they have a twinlinked S10 AP1 gun but just take a look at the Chaos Obliterator, same base point cost with slow and purposeful built in (broadsides have to buy an ASS), the broadsides main gun has one point better of strength and AP compared with the lasconnon.

Without paying for other upgrades is not nearly as effective as the obliterator against infantry when the obliterator's shifting array of weapons is considered.

Not to mention the hugly superior close-comabt skills of an obliterator (with its built in powerfist) compared to a broadside.

So my question; is the broadside underpowered, the obliterator massivley overpowered or a combination of the two.

My friend has recently begun collecting a Chaos army and in several discussions about which army is better I have been unable to come up with many reasons to support the broadside against the Obliterator, especially considering the broadside model costs $15 AUD more than the Obliterator.

Your oppinions would be appreciated.

-drodgers
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Old 29 Jul 2006, 13:09   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Are broadsides underpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drodgers
twinlinked S10 AP1 gun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drodgers
same base point cost with slow and purposeful built in (broadsides have to buy an D'yi),
Not having it automatically is actually an advantage. The broadside gets to choose any battlesuit support system from the list, therefore if you do not particularly want the S+P rule, you can get whatever else (there are shield gens, and much more that can be to more of your likings).

Quote:
Originally Posted by drodgers
Without paying for other upgrades is not nearly as effective as the obliterator against infantry when the obliterator's shifting array of weapons is considered.
The broadside is meant for anti-tank roles, where the railgun comes into play, the secondary weapons are just for some extra defense against largely packed enemies coming towards you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drodgers
Not to mention the hugly superior close-comabt skills of an obliterator (with its built in powerfist) compared to a broadside.
The reason for you comparing them in close combat is a bit odd. As each unit tries to stay out of close combat (they both aren't the best at it), where they can use their weapons. Plus they are both very slow, so the chances of one of them getting to another in a 6 turn game is highly un-likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drodgers
So my question; is the broadside underpowered, the obliterator massivley overpowered or a combination of the two.
All in all, the obliterator has more variety then the broadside, but it can still fire only one weapon per turn. The broadside is best at what it does, and that is being an anti-tank model, and I personally do not think the obliterator can match it in that category (only weapon that could possibly match the railgun is the lascannon which is still shorter-ranged, and it has less strength+AP).
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Old 29 Jul 2006, 13:44   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Are broadsides underpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novus Aevum
The broadside is meant for anti-tank roles, where the railgun comes into play, the secondary weapons are just for some extra defense against largely packed enemies coming towards you.
At least they have the option and do not need to pay for it, the broadside's SMS is almost useless as it will pretty much never have the same target as the railgun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novus Aevum
The reason for you comparing them in close combat is a bit odd. As each unit tries to stay out of close combat (they both aren't the best at it), where they can use their weapons. Plus they are both very slow, so the chances of one of them getting to another in a 6 turn game is highly un-likely.
But at least if Obliterators are swarmed in combat they can do some damage as they go down; unlike broadsides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novus Aevum
All in all, the obliterator has more variety then the broadside, but it can still fire only one weapon per turn. The broadside is best at what it does, and that is being an anti-tank model, and I personally do not think the obliterator can match it in that category (only weapon that could possibly match the railgun is the lascannon which is still shorter-ranged, and it has less strength+AP).
Yes the broadside is better against super heavy tanks, but the obliterator gets far more advantages than the extra AP and Strength are worth in many situations. And, as I said previously, the ability to fire two weapons is almost useless for a broadside as either the SMS or RG will prove ineffective against the target, vehicle or infantry.

The broadside just seems to be an overspecialized unit when compared with the obliterator, in game terms, the extra tank stopping power will probably prove less useful than the possible variations in tactics useable by Obliterators, the Lascannon is still a great anti-tank weapon.

Also I just reviewed the Obliterator entry, in addition to the benifits listed above, they have Fearless, a 5+ invulnerable save and can deep-strike, which goes a long way to negating the lack of meneuverability suffered by both them and broadsides.

Unlike broadsides Obliterators use an Elite slot rather than a valuable Heavy Support slot.

It just seems that Obliterators give their users better bang of their buck as far as points are concerned.
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Old 29 Jul 2006, 20:24   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Are broadsides underpowered?

There are many units in 40K that are underpointed. Most of the Chaos Codex is under pointed, the Eldar Wraithlord is very under costed, and the Necron Monolith... don't even get me started on that... obscenity!

I think the Broadside is at the right cost because it is tough and carries a big gun (much like a Dev Marine with a Las Cannon).
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Old 29 Jul 2006, 20:56   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are broadsides underpowered?

yeh, I think the game can be a bit more balanced

But are the oblit and the broadsides the same amount of points ?
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Old 29 Jul 2006, 23:23   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Are broadsides underpowered?

Yeah, they both have a base cost of seventy points.
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Old 29 Jul 2006, 23:34   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Are broadsides underpowered?

With broadsides you don't need to have a MT for the montat but a blacksun filter. It's two points cheaper and if you play a pick up game you might have to play in night fight so it is nice to have an anti-tank that can see.

A note about BS is that you never fire both weapons at once because it's a complete waste. The SMS/Plasma is too week against tanks and the Railgun is overkill on troopers. With a BS team take a Blacksun Filter and TL's on the rest of them. For a three unit team that's 223.
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Old 30 Jul 2006, 00:34   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Are broadsides underpowered?

obits don't enjoy ap1 and 72 inch range.. not to mention the S10

that gun on the HH is 50 pts in and of itself

sure the obits are nasty, but if you asked me: "replace the xv88 entry in codex with fluffy obit?" I'd say no... because while and obit may be good all arounder, the xv88 is VERY good at sniping tanks.... that's all it does and it does it a hell of a lot better than the Obit can.

for all the other obit function, we have the xv8s... well, almost all.. we have no body with a powerfist
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Old 30 Jul 2006, 02:50   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Are broadsides underpowered?

Broadsides can be just as good, or (in most cases) do better than Oblits in shooting. Give it a MT, you automatically can fire more guns than an oblit. Puls your starting guns either fire more (SMS) or stronger (railgun). Plus both weapons are TL (SMS is really a TL Missilepod). Oblits have no upgrade, but BS can take many toys (Plasma, MT, ASS, SG etc). Broadsides have ability to target vehicles in ranges that most guns can't even touch them. They are essentially dedicated AT platforms (also good at targeting characters). They are extremely useful in big games.
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Old 30 Jul 2006, 03:31   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Are broadsides underpowered?

The Obliterators have a Terminator saves, slow and purposeful, and lascannons for the price of a bare Broadside. Yes the Broadside has multiple wounds, but most of the time lascannons will be shooting at them... instakill city.

The Oblits are too undercosted and in an Iron Warriors Army the fact that you can have 9 of them PLUS *4* HS slots is just evil. If I had my way, Oblits would be about 90 pts because they have all that versatility and they have the weapon that it needs at that time.

Also, everyone who says that Broadsides have their great range... have you had a game where you actually used all of it? I have not and I don't think I ever will.
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