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Maybe I'm a bad FoFer
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Old 28 May 2006, 09:34   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Maybe I'm a bad FoFer

Hey guys, as of now I'm more of a hybrid player but I'm slowly transitioning to full mech. I completely understand the FoF tactic and my placement is never bad but it never works out as amazing as everyone says it does. I even had a missile launcher take out he DF and allow my FW to be assaulted (normally I wouldn't care but it was a small game so it was bad news).

Has anyone one else found the FoF to be irritatingly unreliable...or am I just wrong?

edit: "...I'm more or a mech player but I'm slowly..." completely missed that sorry...
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Old 28 May 2006, 09:52   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Maybe I'm a bad FoFer

as far as I know ( not a mech player bur read about the fof ) you dont want ure fw to be assaulted so thats one thing youre doing wrong.

Of course fof isnt unbeatable.

But you should wait for a proper mech fighter to come over here lol
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Old 28 May 2006, 10:40   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Maybe I'm a bad FoFer

You need to place your stuff very carefuly. The Fof (as with all Tau tactics) requires propper support. You must make sure that you take out the unit you are shooting at by combining your firepower with other units, either more FoF's or battle suits. Try to position your unit so that you are only in assault range of the unit you are shooting at so that it is harder to counter charge. It is also highly advsable to sit in a bit of cover to slow the enimy down if you don't destroy them, and to make sure they attack last if you do manage to get to you.

Hope I've helped!
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Old 28 May 2006, 13:52   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Maybe I'm a bad FoFer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exokan
Has anyone one else found the FoF to be irritatingly unreliable...or am I just wrong?
Nope; it is irritatingly unreliable.

FoF isn't a reliable tactic by any means. It's a last ditch or bonus tactic - the kind of thing you do when you need to deliver the killing blow to an already weakened unit or you just so happened to pass by, had nothing else to do and didn't risk being fired back at. It's by no mean a mainstay of Tau tactics - just something nice you might get to pull off once a game if you're lucky, and which might perform marginally well if you're even luckier.
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Old 28 May 2006, 14:08   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Maybe I'm a bad FoFer

FoF is a good manouvre and a nice trick, it only works in certain circumstances though. On boards with denser terrain, your enemies fire arcs will be shorter (especialy with stationary H. weapons) and you should deploy your FoF units out of their fire arcs so you can kill the enemy infantry etc. without risking the fish. If you are playing on a very open board then you should be taking less mech units and more static units, for range, power and quantity of shots. If it is somewhere inbetween the Hybrid is the way to go. I play on boards with 60%+ terrain so I use Mech and it works amazingly, if it was less than 30% terrain (ok, more like 20%) I would get blown out of the sky. So denser terrain helps if you are just starting to use Mech. And no it isn't you, the FoF is not actualy that amazing under most circumstances (though may turn out to be amazing in city fight).

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Old 28 May 2006, 15:04   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Maybe I'm a bad FoFer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exokan
Hey guys, as of now I'm more or a mech player but I'm slowly transitioning to full mech. I completely understand the FoF tactic and my placement is never bad but it never works out as amazing as everyone says it does. I even had a missile launcher take out he DF and allow my FW to be assaulted (normally I wouldn't care but it was a small game so it was bad news).

Has anyone one else found the FoF to be irritatingly unreliable...or am I just wrong?
Heya,

A FoF maneuver is very different from just moving a Devilfish, disembarking your firewarriors, placing your devilfish between them and your target and shooting them.

Most often, moving your firewarriors forward, within 12 inches of something, Devilfish or not, they're toast next turn. What player is going to allow those firewarriors to just sit there, unshot? Even if you aren't assaulted, it doesn't matter--because all it takes is a few guns, bolters, a heavy bolter or 3, maybe an assault cannnon, etc (or equivalents obviously from other armies) and your firewarriors disappear or possibly fail moral and take off. They can also just blow up the Devilfish, but if they blew up the Devilfish first, they would make it into a wreck which blocks line of sight and provides 4+ cover saves to your guys. So in many ways the Wrecked fish would be a good thing for you.

Regardless of what you want to call it, "FoF", "Drop attack," etc, it requires a few things:

Situation in favor of you making this kind of attack.

Pretty much as that states, the game situation has to be in your favor. You can't just pull off a drop attack with your FireWarriors and brace off an assault with a Devilfish if your opponent is standing around with 3 or 4 squads with line of sight to the firewarriors, and within at least 24 to 36 inch range. You will lose those Firewarriors typically. And losing the Fish, well, you may or may not--most people are just going to hose the firewarriors a.s.a.p. and then if there's nothing better to fire at, fire down the Fish. So the situation simply has to be going your way. Possible ways to describe it in your way: (1) target squad is already diminished and just needs a final blow to remove them, (2) target is pretty much stranded from other units, (3) target has no support from long range units, (4) target has no enhanced movement modes, (5) target is not supported by units which are not near by but whom can move fast enough to be a real supporter on the following turn, (6) it has to be a target you can actually kill or at least severely diminish, (7) you yourself need to have some support behind your firewarriors to ensure they're not the easiest choice in terms of making a target next turn, (8.) and typically, your unit cannot be alone in the attack. That's just a scratch on the surface, and some apply or do not apply depending on who you're playing and the game itself of course. But the point is--things have to be in your favor for it to be successful. Otherwise, you have to have a ton of luck. Sometimes, you can setup these kinds of situations through terrain, movement, your other attacking units, your opponent's list, etc. That can help you out to make these things in your favor. But making someone do what you want, and them not just shooting you down first, isn't the simplest thing in the world.

--- So remember, don't just drop some firewarriors and rapidfire something and expect anything miraculous to happen. If you're attempting to Drop Attack a squad of 8 marines, you're not going to like what the results are if they are still 8 marines. The same is true if you're attempting to drop attack anything that is going to be alive in the following turn still. And no matter what you Drop Attack, even if you kill your target, if there are more guns behind that target, you're going to lose those firewarriors right afterwards (especially if you just whipped out a squad).

Check List:

1 - I can hurt my target, but they will still be alive with quite a few models. (__)
2 - Does my opponent have more guns behind my target that are going to have line of sight? (__)
3 - Does my target, if it will live, have enough firepower to drop me as well? (__)
4 - I don't have any other units with line of sight to my target to help my Drop Attack. (__)
5 - My opponent can't see me now, but next turn can move and see me just fine. (__)
6 - An enemy unit, or more, have enhanced movement near by. (__)
7 - My opponent has a template attack with line of sight, or will have line of sight next turn. (__)

-- Those are just a small sample of questions you should ask yourself. If you checked any of them, your Drop Attack is likely to just turn into a loss of FireWarriors.

"FoF" and Drop Attacks are not super attacks that work like a charm. You will read this on the internet a lot, but it simply doesn't apply in the real game. They are not reliable. The pure tactic of it requires your opponent to literally not be able to respond to you doing something like this. Most opponents on the same level as you, if you're playing a very smart and competitive game, are probably going to be able to deny you the opportunity to reliably pull off a Drop Attack successfully. That's not to say it doesn't work--that's simply to say that it isn't a sure-as-fire way to deal damage and stay alive next turn.

So in other words--choose wisely.

Cheers!
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Old 28 May 2006, 16:12   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Maybe I'm a bad FoFer

The way I see the FOF is it's a bit of a bonus. Normally, when you jump your FireWarriors out from the devilfish, you'll want to shoot the enemy. So why not put this big ol' tank in front of them? The issue I think is more when to attack with your firewarriors than when to use the FOF. Other than that, Mal hit everything square on the head.
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Old 28 May 2006, 18:45   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Maybe I'm a bad FoFer

I think I'm just losing my mind for a second but I suddenly can't remember if a priority check is required to shoot the Fire Warriors instead of the Fish if I am the one being FoF'd.
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Old 28 May 2006, 19:05   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Maybe I'm a bad FoFer

Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Dev'n
I think I'm just losing my mind for a second but I suddenly can't remember if a priority check is required to shoot the Fire Warriors instead of the Fish if I am the one being FoF'd.
In the FOF your opponent DOES need to roll a priority check to shoot the FW if the DF is closer
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Old 28 May 2006, 20:29   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Maybe I'm a bad FoFer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farseer Tanis
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Dev'n
I think I'm just losing my mind for a second but I suddenly can't remember if a priority check is required to shoot the Fire Warriors instead of the Fish if I am the one being FoF'd.
In the FOF your opponent DOES need to roll a priority check to shoot the FW if the DF is closer
Correct.

I find FoF unreliable, to say the least. I usually use it if I have a weakened squad approaching close (such as a few assault marines) or against light infantry. Like 'a neutral shade of black' said, you use FoF when you need to kill something.

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