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Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?
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Old 20 May 2006, 18:14   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?

In the listing, it says they cause a pinning test if they cause at least one wound (page 29, lower right). Now, on first glance, you would assume that this means the enemy would have to fail his armour save. However, I wish to substantiate this from the CSM codex (page 56, under Slaanesh Minor Psyker Powers):

Quote:
For every close combat attack that wounds the psyker, but is stopped by his Armour save,
As well, from the BGB (page 23, under Multiple Toughness):

Quote:
If this roll is successful, the target has been wounded...
[note that this is in regards to the to wound roll]

It seems as though GW believes that it still counts as a wound even if it's stopped by the armour save. If we take this, it means that all a pulse carbine needs to do is pass the to hit and to wound rolls. This means...

One gun drone has a 55% chance of hitting and a 66% chance of wounding an MEQ which means it has a 37% chance of causing a wound and, therefore, forcing a pinning test.

One firewarrior has a 50% chance of hitting and a 66% chance of wounding an MEQ, which means there's a 33% chance of causing a wound and, therefore, forcing a pinning test.

Now, if we add in the armour save, then there's only a 12% chance with the gun drone and an 11% chance with the firewarrior. That's a HUGE difference. Our chances of forcing a pinning test are 3x higher if we take the position that a wound doesn't have to be failed with the armour save to still count as a wound.

This means that, with 3 gun drones or firewarriors, statistically, you WILL force a pinning test. In a squad of 8 gun drones, there's a 296% chance to force a pinning test and, in a squad of 12 firewarriors, there's a 396% chance. Kinda makes you want to take that footslogger squad with carbines, don't it?

>
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Old 20 May 2006, 18:18   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?

I'm pretty sure that's just another case of GW's bad wording. Glancing through the BGB, p. 24

"If a model is wearing armour it is allowed a further dice roll to see if the armour stop them being wounded." (direct quote- wow nice grammar GW :P.)
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Old 20 May 2006, 18:19   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?

Techinically that would be Rule-lawyering. And most people hate lawyers.

The tactic seems nice, however, it's not worth footslogging. That team is extremely vunerable to heavy bolters. Better save that for a modified FoF. Combine that with Markerlights, that would be 1 hell of a team.
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Old 20 May 2006, 18:23   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaiden
I'm pretty sure that's just another case of GW's bad wording. Glancing through the BGB, p. 24

"If a model is wearing armour it is allowed a further dice roll to see if the armour stop them being wounded." (direct quote- wow nice grammar GW :P.)
Yet again, I refer you to both of my quotes which seem to indicate the armour save doesn't matter... the target's still considered "wounded," but the armour save may stop it from taking the wound itself.

And, yes, I understand that this is HUGE rule lawyering. However, it shows that, yet again, GW should substantiate their rules more.

Also, think about this logically: in real life, troops will duck and cover without taking casualties if a .50 cal's throwing rounds their way!

And, yeah, a FoF with 3 carbines would, statistically, force a pinning test. Throw in a few markerlights and you're almost garunteed to force them to stay there.

;D
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Old 20 May 2006, 18:24   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyguy832
In a squad of 8 gun drones, there's a 296% chance to force a pinning test and, in a squad of 12 firewarriors, there's a 396% chance.
Incorrect. In a squad of 8 gun drones where each drone has a 37% chance to pin, the entire squad has a 97.52% chance to pin. In a squad of 12 fire warriors where each fire warrior has a 33% chance to pin, the entire squad has a 99.19% chance to pin.
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Old 20 May 2006, 18:26   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?

Errr... I don't think so, although my math might've been gunky as well... actually... no.

In a squad of 12 FW, 6 will hit and 4 of those will wound. Just one of those 4 are enough to cause a pinning test. That means there's a 400% chance of pinning.

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Crazy Guy, you are very disturbing...

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5th edition stats (W/D/L)
Deathwing: 14/6/3
Tau: 5/0/3
Blood Angels (NEW): 10/1/3
Blood Angels (OLD): 27/5/10
Eldar: 10/0/1
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Old 20 May 2006, 18:27   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?

99% or 396%. What's the difference? In real life you can't go over 100% and 99% seems close enough to garuntee a pinning test.

I wouldn't use this unless you are facing an oppenent that is doing something similar. Unless you want to be called cheesey and powergamer. :
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Old 20 May 2006, 18:30   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?

The difference is, while you can never truly be 100% sure of something...

4/1 isn't .99, it's 4.

:P

Statistically, you can't go over 100%, no, but what I said (getting that pinning test) represents something so incredibly impossible not to happen that it will virtually ALWAYS happen unless something goes drastically wrong. So, yeah, the chance is more like 99.99999999999999999999999999999%.

:P

And, no, I would NEVER use it like this, as it seems far overpowered. Although I do believe that GW should clarify it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odo The Brave
Crazy Guy, you are very disturbing...

Do It! ;D
5th edition stats (W/D/L)
Deathwing: 14/6/3
Tau: 5/0/3
Blood Angels (NEW): 10/1/3
Blood Angels (OLD): 27/5/10
Eldar: 10/0/1
Death Guard: 1/0/0
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Old 20 May 2006, 19:08   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?

Just to hint you into things, the above is not how pinning works.

Page 32; Pinning Weapons.

"... When the firing of a single enemy unit inflicts casualties with pinning weapons..."

There is no such thing as pinning via wounds. You only get to test pinning with casualties.

Page 26; Remove Casualties.

You must fail an armor save, or be denied an armor save, and have a model successfully wounded and thus removed in order to make a casualty. This is the trigger for the pinning weapon, if the pinning weapon itself causes the casualty. In all cases--casualties are the resolution of wounds. If you successfully take wounds, you then remove casualties--this requires failed saves, or no saves possible.

[size=12pt]It takes much more than just a wound.[/size]

Cheers!
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Old 20 May 2006, 21:08   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Pulse carbines... are they more powerful than we thought?

Would a squad of multiwound troops (Obliterators for example?) have to test pinning if they got shot by carbines, and failed one save?

This doesnt actually kill anyone, but casualties also include wounded.
Id assume you have to actually kill someone(remove model), but would like some opinions.
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