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Cover height and skimmer question
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Old 05 Mar 2006, 06:01   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Cover height and skimmer question

My group and I have been experimenting with different types of terrain and making things more and more complex in our games. The question came up about "line of sight" blocking terrain and skimmers. If we are right so far (and likely we aren't) the following is true:

1) Woods block line of sight through them

2) Woods (and other terrain) can be of a number of heights (such as height 1, height 2, height 3...etc.)

3) Terrain of a lower height than a model in it does not provide cover or block LOS to or from the model. Example, a Height 2 monsterous creature standing in height 1 woods can be seen and shot at and can also see and shoot itself.

From skimmers:

4) Skimmers do not end their movement "in" woods or other difficult terrain areas. Instead, they "hover" above them gaining no cover benefit from them.

5) Because skimmers are hovering, they do not block LOS like other tanks can.

So now here come the questions:

6) Can a skimmer fire freely while "hovering" above a woods hex (much like a monsterous creature standing in lower height terrain)?

7) Can a skimmer "choose" to hover at a higher height behind a woods area (actually in the clear with the woods in front of it) so that it can shoot over/past the woods at a target? It could also be targeted in this case.

8) Could a skimmer elect to end it's movement "hull down" in the above terrain situation in #7 where it could theoretically end it's move at a lower height to either gain no LOS or at least a glancing hit only result?

9) If a skimmer is hovering at a higher height, either because it can from #7 above, or it has ended its movement over higher height terrain, then could it shoot past a second peice of intervening terrain at the same or lower height? If true, the idea may eventually allow a skimmer tank to choose to be at such a height at the end of it's movement that no LOS are blocked by terrain to any point on the playfield. Considering a railgun outfitted hammerhead, this is very dangerous.

Please help out a noob and his buddy and comment on what we need to do to cover these situations. (And yes, he plays with 'nids and monsterous creatures and I play Tau)

-Aun Shasta
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Old 05 Mar 2006, 06:14   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cover height and skimmer question

You can never fire through terrain, even if your skimmer is behind it "hovering higher", unless of course you want to make this clear to your opponent and allow him to shoot at it in the next turn so its fair. Rules wise its a no no (think if i remember right this is how eldar skimmers used to work in 2nd Ed.)

If you are in terrain (meaning over it) you are free to fire just like normal, but can be fired back at, making the issue of terrain meaningless.

The only exceptions to firing through terrain are in the cityfight codex where terrain due to the game can be fired over depending on height, but in a normal 40k game, consider everything with a birds eye 2D view, height doesn't matter.
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Old 05 Mar 2006, 06:22   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cover height and skimmer question

Example, a Height 2 monsterous creature standing in height 1 woods can be seen and shot at and can also see and shoot itself.

Monsterous creatures and vehicles are always classed as height 3, if they are behind level 2 area terrain they can be seen, makes no difference if it is a small ork truck or the monolith.

Course normal los blocking terrain blocks los normally, only area terrain works with those set height numbers.
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Old 05 Mar 2006, 13:13   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cover height and skimmer question

Quote:
6) Can a skimmer fire freely while "hovering" above a woods hex (much like a monsterous creature standing in lower height terrain)?
Yes.

Quote:
7) Can a skimmer "choose" to hover at a higher height behind a woods area
NO! I'm sick of hearing this, where do people get this idea?

Quote:
9)
The book says to add the model's height to any terrain it's on top of. So if you are on top of a size 3 forest, you are now size 6. Which means you can fire anywhere, but anyone can see you. I think the best solution is to use actual LOS to check if you can fire "over" other area terrain in this manner.
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Old 05 Mar 2006, 16:46   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cover height and skimmer question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunshasta

1) Woods block line of sight through them

2) Woods (and other terrain) can be of a number of heights (such as height 1, height 2, height 3...etc.)

3) Terrain of a lower height than a model in it does not provide cover or block LOS to or from the model. Example, a Height 2 monsterous creature standing in height 1 woods can be seen and shot at and can also see and shoot itself.

From skimmers:

4) Skimmers do not end their movement "in" woods or other difficult terrain areas. Instead, they "hover" above them gaining no cover benefit from them.

5) Because skimmers are hovering, they do not block LOS like other tanks can.

So now here come the questions:

6) Can a skimmer fire freely while "hovering" above a woods hex (much like a monsterous creature standing in lower height terrain)?

7) Can a skimmer "choose" to hover at a higher height behind a woods area (actually in the clear with the woods in front of it) so that it can shoot over/past the woods at a target? It could also be targeted in this case.

8) Could a skimmer elect to end it's movement "hull down" in the above terrain situation in #7 where it could theoretically end it's move at a lower height to either gain no LOS or at least a glancing hit only result?

9) If a skimmer is hovering at a higher height, either because it can from #7 above, or it has ended its movement over higher height terrain, then could it shoot past a second peice of intervening terrain at the same or lower height? If true, the idea may eventually allow a skimmer tank to choose to be at such a height at the end of it's movement that no LOS are blocked by terrain to any point on the playfield. Considering a railgun outfitted hammerhead, this is very dangerous.

Please help out a noob and his buddy and comment on what we need to do to cover these situations. (And yes, he plays with 'nids and monsterous creatures and I play Tau)

-Aun Shasta
Still livin' in the fishes.
(I have 2 now!) 8)
1) Woods (area terrain) block LOS in two conditions. If there is more than 6" of area terrain, of the appropriate height, between the shooter and target, LOS is blocked. If the shooter and target LOS is blocked by area terrain of the appropriate height, but neither unit is in the area terrain in question, LOS is blocked even if it is less than 6". City fight makes an exception, here.

2) Correct.

3) Well, yes. Area Terrain is classed as height 1,2, or 3. A monsterous creature can be higher than height 2 or 3 area terrain feature, but can still get a cover save from it. A Marine can be in height 1 or 2 area terrain, be visible, but still gets a cover save. A four foot high wall leaves half the marine exposed, but still covers half, and units can be kneeling, or running crouched. Otherwise, everyone would make models lying on their bases in a fetal position. I can't recall rightly, but I believe height 1 area terrain is of no benefit to Monstrous Creatures or Vehicles. And these rules apply to the unit. If more than half the unit is in cover, the whole unit receives a cover save.

4) Some Skimmers, like the Tau, have Landing Gear, that can allow a Skimmer to land in Area Terrain, making a difficult terrain test.

5) Yes, as long as the Skimmer hasn't landed(see above) or crashed.

6) Definitely.

7) No. Skimmers have limited flight capability. Hovering a hundred feet up is beyond them, unless they are over area or dangerous terrain.

8) When landed, skimmers can benefit from hull down rules.

9) Yes. A model at height can ignore area terrain for purposes of LOS. Models wishing to target the skimmer doing so have the same ability.

On this subject, can a Devilfish unload troops anywhere on a tower, like the roof? I'd say definitely if the Devilfish can end it's move there, but what if there isn't enough space to fit the troops and the Devilfish?


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Old 05 Mar 2006, 17:37   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cover height and skimmer question

daniel, some of those are right, some of those I don't know where you get.

Here's what I think:

1. Yes, woods (and all area terrain) block line of sight through them.* However, if one of the units in question is taller than the terrain, he can both see and be seen through the terrain.* Also, if one or both units are in the area terrain, they can see up to 6" through it. (more on Page 21 of the rulebook)

2. There are three height catagories and three only, described on page 7 of the rulebook.

3. Models can claim cover saves from area terrain up to one size smaller than itself.* Cover is also not affected by the AP value of the weapon shooting at it so units will normally always get a cover save. (page 25)

4. Yes, skimmers ignore terrain altogether during movement. (page 61)

5. Yep, unless they are immobilised or wrecked. (page 20)

6. Yes, as they are not in terrain at all.

7. No, for the same reasons daniel stated.* Vehicles need to draw line of sight just like infantry when shooting, and that means model-eye view. (page 64)

8. This is where I disagree.* The rules make no mention of a skimmer ever landing and I don't see how it could be possible, the vehicle is just moving too fast to hit the ground safely.* Hull down, as described on page 69, is the same as an obscured target, and on page 61 it says that skimmers aren't able to count as obscured.* Instead of landing and relying on being able to 'tough it out', skimmers rely on speed as shown in the Skimmers Moving Fast section on page 69.* It basically says that any hits on a skimmer that moves over 6" are glancing.

9. Yep, page 7 says that if if the observer OR the observed has a height greater than anything in the way, then it has a clear line of sight.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On that devilfish question, I'd say it's okay to unload into the tower, but I can't a rule on it.* I can picture the 'fish hovering for awhile outside of the tower while everyone disembarks.

[EDIT: spelling]
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Old 05 Mar 2006, 18:29   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cover height and skimmer question

1), 2), 3), 5), 6), 7), 9) Agreed

4) Agreed. Although I believe if a skimmer has a movement rate of 12", it won't be able to jump up on top of an 18" tower.

8) Erhm, yes, I can't say where the rules are for Landing Gear. I think I seen the reference first in IA3, and I don't believe it's in Codex: Tau or WH40K 4th ed. It might be in Tau Empires or White Dwarf.

I guess in regards to disembarking on a tower, when the Devilfish doesn't have a place to sit, you could count the 2" disembarcation zone as going up, as well. So measure 2" up from the top of the hatch as the Devilfish sits as a limit?
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Old 05 Mar 2006, 18:37   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cover height and skimmer question

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel.wilson
8) Erhm, yes, I can't say where the rules are for Landing Gear. I think I seen the reference first in IA3, and I don't believe it's in Codex: Tau or WH40K 4th ed. It might be in Tau Empires or White Dwarf.
It is in the Tau Empire codex in the details of vehicle equipment.
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Old 07 Mar 2006, 03:36   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cover height and skimmer question

Awesome, more tricks for the Tau.

I just read about the Landing Gear being used in the battle report of the newest WD and I wondered what exactly you could do with it?
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Old 07 Mar 2006, 03:52   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cover height and skimmer question

9) If a skimmer is hovering at a higher height, either because it can from #7 above, or it has ended its movement over higher height terrain, then could it shoot past a second peice of intervening terrain at the same or lower height? If true, the idea may eventually allow a skimmer tank to choose to be at such a height at the end of it's movement that no LOS are blocked by terrain to any point on the playfield. Considering a railgun outfitted hammerhead, this is very dangerous.

You can only get higher by being on top of other area terrain, usually only LOS needs to be drawn, if area terrain is involved, then you would use the 1-2-3 size characteristics, however IMO the ability to shoot over terrain, when theres no clear LOS, should only be used in obscure cases like your skimmer is hoveing over a forest (in which case you cant place the model in such a way to clearly represent size 6), and the targeted unit is behind area terrain (or a mob in hth, etc.), however if the targeted unit is clearly behind a terrain featrue (such as a wall/building) then I would still require LOS.
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