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Tau in siege defence mode.
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Old 01 Mar 2006, 22:42   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau in siege defence mode.

Being a Titan Player, I think you're putting too much emphasis on the Titan's weapons and not enough on the vulnerabilities.

I can't tell you stats or Warlord as they've never been officially released (that I know of), but the rules for the Manta ARE in IA3. They are comparable in hull points. The key is how hard to hit? I don't care about your Titan Weapons if you don't have AA ability and I'm flying. You require 6's to hit and I don't!

Caught on the ground with no support, yup - Manta Craters! But not likely

If a Manta is caught on the ground, you KNOW squadrons of TigerSharks with their rail cannons and seekers are going to be there in squadron numbers providing cover, not to mention Barracudas. That makes it that much harder on the Titan to sneak up on a Manta. If a Warlord gets to range to shoot at the Manta, it'll be missing shields and probably be badly hurt. Revers and Warhounds will be craters.

As to "How would it REALLY play?" I would presume Tau evacuate as much as they could. Remainder left behind would litterally start doing guerrilla warfare, fall back, avoid capture, snipe from a distance, harass supply lines, etc. Think American and Japanese Islands tactics from WWII - both sides left observers, snipers and small teams everytime they were forced to fall back. Remember the Australian Costal Watchers (very poorly recognized for their efforts IMHO). Even in an Imperial Hive city, this is plausible (not even the Imperium REALLY knows what's at the lowest levels of any hive!).

As a scenario, I could see this being limited to a single Manta or a couple of Orcas trying to evacuate Tau land forces with some other Air Support, but not really as a Titan catches me by surprise scenario.
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Old 01 Mar 2006, 22:47   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau in siege defence mode.

Originally Posted by BlindGunn
I can't tell you stats or Warlord as they've never been officially released (that I know of), but the rules for the Manta ARE in IA3.
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Old 01 Mar 2006, 23:06   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau in siege defence mode.

...Mantas aren't flyers. If GW has made them Flyers, then we can officially scrap the Manta as fanboyish... seriously, it started out as a 6-SP Skimmer who could beat the snot out of anyone that wasn't a Titan... then they decided it was going to rival the Warlord, and now they've decided it's a Flyer, despite the fact that all existing fluff says it struggles to move faster than most Imperial tanks when in atmosphere!?


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Old 01 Mar 2006, 23:08   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau in siege defence mode.

Originally Posted by Arguleon-veq
I think you are vastly over estimating what a Manta can do within a planets atmosphere. It is a HUGE craft, I doubt if it is capable of making high angle dives etc.

Warhounds for example are faster than a Manta when the Manta is in a planets atmosphere. Big walkers, faster than a flyer. Because Mantas are really pretty slow when it comes to engaging ground forces and far from agile.
Warhounds and tanks are slightly faster than a skimming Manta, but Warlords are significantly slower. The Manta does get to use the "Planetfall" special rule, which is a little like Epic's version of Deep Striking. In that sense, it would appear that it is able to descend on the battlefield quite sharply. Warlords are better against single opponents, Mantas are better against groups. They generally balance out in most respects, although the Warlord is much more effective in a straight-up duel. As far as points go in Epic (and depending on what version you are using), the Manta is slightly less expensive than the Warlord and about three times more expensive than a Warhound.

I agree that the Tau probably couldn't hold out for very long in a siege situation, but I think they are also fast enough to escape it in most circumstances, provided they haven't already lost air superiority.

You don't actually need 6s to hit the Manta in 40k, as described in the AA Fire section of its IA3 profile. It is just too big.

I need to emphasize that we have very little fluff dealing with Tau on the Epic scale, so there is really little you can say about it. The only recent example we have is Taros, where the Tau did just fine against the lower end of the Imperium's Epic capabilities. Their actual rules in Epic make the Tau very competitive at that scale, even overpowered. The Tau are not necessarily weak on the larger scale, just undefined.

Originally Posted by Wargamer
...Mantas aren't flyers. If GW has made them Flyers, then we can officially scrap the Manta as fanboyish... seriously, it started out as a 6-SP Skimmer who could beat the snot out of anyone that wasn't a Titan... then they decided it was going to rival the Warlord, and now they've decided it's a Flyer, despite the fact that all existing fluff says it struggles to move faster than most Imperial tanks when in atmosphere!?
As I mentioned before, the Manta does not benefit from any of the targeting penalties that normal Flyers are protected by, which is fair. It does make sense that it should be treated as a flyer, though. It is skimming much higher than a normal Tau vehicle, and it lacks the precision to really maneuver on the 40k scale. Keep in mind that a Rhino should actually be able to move about 24-36 inches/turn if it was just driving along on a road. 40k speeds represent the care taken to maneuver around in the immediate presence of an enemy. Mantas do not have the need (or the ability) to do that. The impact they would have on the battlefield would generally be just to fly over. I doubt they could stop and hover like a Hammerhead even if they wanted to. That is my rationale, anyway. As Arguleon-veq mentioned, they would probably not be very good at defending a static fortress, which is well-represented by using the flyer rules.

To be honest, the codex itself stated that the Manta was the closest Tau equivalent of a Titan. It has rivaled the Warlord from the beginning. In that context, your complaints about its stats are starting to sound a little fanboyish to me. You don't have to worry, though. You still have the Imperator and Warmonger classes, as well as all the Ordinatus to keep your Imperial pride boosted.

You aren't going to be able to scrap official GW rules as "fanboyish", as that statement first requires that the writer be a "fan". You can argue that they are unfair, or inappropriate for what they represent, but it is still GW's call in the end.
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Old 01 Mar 2006, 23:35   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau in siege defence mode.

All of this discussion misses the point.

A Seige only happens when one side (the Beseiged) refuses to leave, and lets the Beseiger take the time to muster enough military resources and logistics (men, ammo, food, and Titans!!) to actually trap them and mount a seige.

What would happen when a Tau hunter Cradre is ambushed in a mountainpass is leave. Right then and there! At that point, at most a battalion of SMs is attempting to do some military action upon them. The Titans are on the other continent, maybe still at the starport landingpads, and at that mountainpass theres simply not enough beseiger presense to stop a Manta evac. The ability to stop a withdrawl takes TIME, and most importantly, the Defenders stubborness or ineptitude.

Step all this up to strategic level, and Fleet superiority, as soon as things look dicey, you leave! You make a fighting withdrawl with the skirmish or border vanguard elements while its still initially doable... BEFORE youre completely surrounded and trapped, or utterly crushed.

Thats the "hold no ground" defensive strategy of the Tau... they would never be caught in a seige because they arent that blind/ignorant, and theyll know when its a lost cause and when a good time to pull out would be. So, in the example, when a Tau Cadre in a mountainpass 'fort' comes under suprise attack, no WAY is the entire mountainrange surrounded by Titans and seas of humanity that the Tau somehow didnt know about, able to shoot down any Mantas that try to get in. Nope, the Call to evac comes when the Tau realize the SMs have landed on their continent with enough to encapsulate them, certainly before they actually get to their location and the Manta and Cadre are certainly strong enough to repulse any suprise attack that reaches them at that point long enough to withdrawl.

Hope that clears that up. As I see it, my Tau would never be stuck like that, even if the entire Imperium encircles Tau space with every Chapter and Legion they have, my Tau would still see the way the wind was blowing.. and leave before the encircling could be completed. Yes, leave. As an Empire. Where to? Not telling!
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Old 01 Mar 2006, 23:50   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau in siege defence mode.

there is a story in the codex, or somewhere, about a group of fire warriors and there leader, i think an etheral, being attacked by endless waves or orcs. now what they did was hold there lines, but if get to close to cc, they retreat to next held position. when it said That they were gettting ready fight off the last wave, it stated that everyeone was getting ready to fight, even the tau in the earth cast were grabbing for shovels and picks and what not, getting ready to fight to the last man. but Devil fish's came and saved them. now the only i think the tau can be seiged is if they are traveling across open ground, with a defenseive position near by. if they get suprised attacked, and lose, they might reteat into there and then get seiged. now saying that there is no way of being picked up via air, or picked up by DF's. what else will they do, run across open ground and get slaughtered. there is a way that they will be defending. and also there defenses weapons that ive seen in fluff is when the Imperial forces first seen the tau. they approached there defensive turrets, and were attacked from long range. so there is some things about them defending and what not.
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Old 02 Mar 2006, 00:04   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau in siege defence mode.

On the small scale, I am sure it happens quite often. While they don't like to build fortified positions, the Tau war machine probably still requires some static infrastructure that needs to be protected (with drone turrets, etc.). Things like Mantas and Titans are irrelevant in this scale and at this level, Tau are pretty well-equipped to survive in a defensive position. I imagine they would just try to hold out until reinforcements or evacuation came, just as Imperial Guard would do. I wouldn't exactly call this kind of skirmish action a "siege", though.
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Old 02 Mar 2006, 00:33   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau in siege defence mode.

I doubt Tau you actually get trapped, and if they did, they would launch fast attacks from their position to find weak points, then if you do, push trough and pray to the Aun you live.

And on the Titan front, I believe that a Barricuba wing (squadron ect.) could down a Warlord with some trouble, but they would keep it occupied long enough for the Tau to load up are turn their tail-less butts and run.

And massed Railguns CAN bring down a Titan. So could enmass missile strikes.

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Old 02 Mar 2006, 01:19   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau in siege defence mode.

Originally Posted by Wargamer
despite the fact that all existing fluff says it struggles to move faster than most Imperial tanks when in atmosphere!?
where is this fluff you speak of? as i have the first tau codex, IA3 and the read the epic rules which have them as flyer and under non of them dose it say that it is slower than a tank. also i think it strange that there just flyers now they are descirbe in the codex as skimmer or flyer shame they lost that abilty in IA3.

to go back to the hypotheitical thory of a warlord titan whats to stop a manta activating it ether drive and getting the hell out of there
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Old 02 Mar 2006, 02:08   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tau in siege defence mode.

A siege on the Tau is fairly unlikely. As Taros and the Damocles campaigns showed us, Tau are absolutely unhesistant to yield terrain or key locations if it gives them a better chance of rallying and retaking it later. I'd also highly doubt they keep anything of great strategic importance on the ground; I'd imagine Tau facilities are much less like entrenched facilities and much more like firebases.

The only two circumstances I can see Tau seige-bound in would either be when they're cornered into it and cut off, in which case they're probably doomed anyway, or in the defense of a VERY important element such as a critical facility (think a siege of a sept world), or the defense of a VIP such as a grand Eitherial such as Aun'va if they couldn't extract him.
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