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New Codex and some thoughts...
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Old 27 Feb 2006, 11:32   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default New Codex and some thoughts...

Hello,
I am a beginner that usually play against a friend that uses Sisters of battle.
After reading a lot of codexes and with all the previewed matrial from the new codex, I think that the Tau empire Codex has not change tau armies in a significant way.
The basic space marine/sister of battle clearly outpower our basic firewarrior. They have better armor (better save) and can field a plethora of heavy weapons in their basic squads that are impossible to our basic squads. Why this? Why the GW game designers didn't give our troops this option? For heavy weapons, we have to use Crisis Suits...
After a lot of battles against, basically, against space marines, I suppose a lot of wargear would be abandoned in the field. Dead marines, prisoners, woundeds, wrecked vehicles, etc... Tau are not like humans of the 41st Millennial, they have science and technology as their banner.
So (without knowing the time lapse), How is possible that Tau scientists have not created or reversed their version of the servoarmour of the space marines to equip their troops? Don't they realize how costly is to train, equip and maintain a footsoldier in battle? This is incredible to me.
If as the Tau says "the wise adapt to changes", why they don't have developed heavy ranged weapons to equip their foot squads? I believe that after having fought a lot of battles, they would have analyzed the battle reports from their commanders in the field. More to me if a great lapse of time has passed.
Now that the new XV25 are replacing the XV15, older suits could be downgraded for being used by standard troops ( you strip burst cannon, jumpjets and stealth materials/technology). In doing this you achieve a great success for your troops while keep a hypothetical making cost down cause you have the factories to produce them.
Also, if a lot of time has passed and a lot of battles have been fought, why the tau have not developed a specialized suit for hand to hand combat? Known is the tau dislike for hand to hand combat, but its necessary to achieve victory against enemies. Again, The wise ones should adapt or die... These troops should be "elite choices" for our commanders in the field...
I think GW developers has passed an opportunity to make Tau a better army. If you do a Codex, do it right...
Sadly, the eagle flag will remain above the pole a lot of time more...
Please forgive my bad English, but it's not my mother language.
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Old 27 Feb 2006, 12:09   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: New Codex and some thoughts...

Y'know, "adapt" doesn't mean the same as "copy".

Why should Tau field close-combat units because everyone else does it? That's not adptation, it's desperation. Adaptation in this case means the mobility and firepower to avoid CC. And since we had those anyway, there's no need to change them.

Why no power armour, when the Tau Empire is clearly capable of mass-producing it? Gamewise, because every man and his dog has a 3+ save.
Fluffwise, there's a recluctance among the Ethereal caste to make more battlesuits available, because of the amount of power they give any one Tau, and the psychological effect that has on the pilot. I don't imagine their reasons for not dishing out power armour are much different.

As to heavy weapons in squads, it's much the same thing. The Tau military are doctrinally opposed to it. The Tau army is one that relies on the interplay of different units to be successful, and part of that is having the right weapons platform in the right place at the right time. Adding heavy weapons to squads removes that need.
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Old 27 Feb 2006, 12:25   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Codex and some thoughts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padawan
Hello,
I am a beginner that usually play against a friend that uses Sisters of battle.
After reading a lot of codexes and with all the previewed matrial from the new codex, I think that the Tau empire Codex has not change tau armies in a significant way.
The basic space marine/sister of battle clearly outpower our basic firewarrior. They have better armor (better save) and can field a plethora of heavy weapons in their basic squads that are impossible to our basic squads. Why this? Why the GW game designers didn't give our troops this option? For heavy weapons, we have to use Crisis Suits...
So what if marines overpower firewarriors? they're supposed to. these guys are supermen on steroids. sisters of battle are SAS troopers on steroids. Fire Warriors are US marines, or marine force recon.

then the weapons loadouts: GW decided not to give fire warriors heavy or special weapons for a reason: to be different. and to give these to specialised squads. FLuffwise, fire warriors are meant to be ultramobile. they droip in, make the kill, and move out. you cant do that when you've a massive lug of a heavy bolter holding you down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padawan
After a lot of battles against, basically, against space marines, I suppose a lot of wargear would be abandoned in the field. Dead marines, prisoners, woundeds, wrecked vehicles, etc... Tau are not like humans of the 41st Millennial, they have science and technology as their banner.
its not that often that tau get to fight space marines.l its not like the board game. 99% of tau combat is against orks, guard, or tyranids. and for the record, humans are far more advanced than tau when it comes to technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padawan
So (without knowing the time lapse), How is possible that Tau scientists have not created or reversed their version of the servoarmour of the space marines to equip their troops? Don't they realize how costly is to train, equip and maintain a footsoldier in battle? This is incredible to me.
possibly because they prefer their fire warriors to remain lighter and more mobile? because they lack the black carapace that lets them use power armour? Because marines never leave a fallen brother behind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padawan
If as the Tau says "the wise adapt to changes", why they don't have developed heavy ranged weapons to equip their foot squads? I believe that after having fought a lot of battles, they would have analyzed the battle reports from their commanders in the field. More to me if a great lapse of time has passed.
because they dont need heavy ranged weapo0ns in their infantry squads. Look, fire warriors are meant to be umltramobile, and fluffily, devilfish would be an automatic squad upgrade. besides, its their job to hold the line, shoot the other grunts, and leave the tough jobs to those who have proved their ability and skill in battle (crisis pilots). and then of course, we have to look beyond the 40k scale. we've got fleet assets. we've got manta missile destroyers. we've got swordfish and a whole pletohra of other extremely long rang earmour. how about the AX10?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padawan
Now that the new XV25 are replacing the XV15, older suits could be downgraded for being used by standard troops ( you strip burst cannon, jumpjets and stealth materials/technology). In doing this you achieve a great success for your troops while keep a hypothetical making cost down cause you have the factories to produce them.
do you realise how difficult it would be to up the production. No longer will it be produced for the elites, (and for a very small group of elites) but for every damn grunt? how do you spend resources? with the time and resources it takes to build 20 astealthsuits, i've got the kit for 200 fire warriors. besides, tau philosophy on suits is only those who'[ve proved themsleves earn one. Its like space marine terminator armour. And in fairness, you dont see the USS giving every tom, dick and harry in their armed force their own personal ABRAMS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padawan
Also, if a lot of time has passed and a lot of battles have been fought, why the tau have not developed a specialized suit for hand to hand combat? Known is the tau dislike for hand to hand combat, but its necessary to achieve victory against enemies. Again, The wise ones should adapt or die... These troops should be "elite choices" for our commanders in the field...
no, theyt shouldnt. firstly tau despise hand to hand, physically, tactically, and philosophically. there is no need for a h2h suit. 40k mechanics require hand to hand. but in fairness, aside from orks and tyranids it will not happen. crisis suits engaged can just turn on the jets and hit high altitude. fire warriors could pull out hundreds of metres in front of those charging orks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padawan
I think GW developers has passed an opportunity to make Tau a better army. If you do a Codex, do it right...
Sadly, the eagle flag will remain above the pole a lot of time more...
Please forgive my bad English, but it's not my mother language.
no they have not. they kept the tau fluffy and true to their style. tau are a race that rely on their:
technology to win (we have that)
mutual support (we have that)
long range (we have that)
mobility and "smart firepower" (we have that)

what you seem to want are space marines...
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Old 27 Feb 2006, 12:27   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Codex and some thoughts...

I have to agree with Deadnight. "Adapting" to close-combat doesn't mean learning how to use a sword, it can equally mean learning how to kill the enemy assault troops before they charge!
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Old 27 Feb 2006, 13:28   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Codex and some thoughts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
I have to agree with Deadnight. "Adapting" to close-combat doesn't mean learning how to use a sword, it can equally mean learning how to kill the enemy assault troops before they charge!
Yessums, you're both right to me...dodging enemy assault elements, isolating them and then firing on them is how I'd do it rather than trying to do what they do better and abandoning my advantages. Dying is not fun. Even Kroot, while better fighters, aren't designated to assaulting the enemy...and I shudder the day that Tau are meant to fight in close combat. Photon nades and the increased Strength/high number of attacks in a Crisis team (if you field them in squads) makes them harder to kill by weak troops...it does NOT mean they are meant to fight in close combat. Giving basic Fire Warriors this ability is not right :P
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Old 27 Feb 2006, 18:07   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Codex and some thoughts...

Even if Tau engineering did salvage Imperium power armour to make copies of it. The fact is that Tau as just short of stature, plain and simple. It's not their fault and it's not a flaw, it's just how they are. So in order to get that lovely 3+ equivalent you'd have to add some massive servors to the armour to aid the Tau in moving it. In fact more machine then Tau...but wouldn't that be a Crisis suit?

As far as equiping all grunts with stealth (minus the stealth) armour, the Tau empire simply isn't big enough right now to supply the resources necessary. It's not a lack in manufacturing ability, just lack of materials due to lack of space, due to lack of age of the empire. Plus, to give a full squad that kind of armour would basically kiss the Devilfish goodbye...no space. So there goes our lovely mobility and now you've just got another sisters of battle clone footslogging it across the feild.
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Old 27 Feb 2006, 18:42   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Codex and some thoughts...

As much as I dislike the inability of firewarrior squads to take special/heavy weapons for table-top purposes (it really does limit their usefulness), from a fluff perspective I can see it happening. Line troops are usually armed with line weapons, and special things (special teams/squads/creatures...or, for the tau, crisis suits) carry the more rare special weapons, usually for extra accuracy, mobility and/or protection (or because they're big and heavy!).

As for technology, I think the Tau are more advanced then the imperium. Stealth fields, anti-grav tech, etc. The imperium has bits and pieces of advanced technology that it doesn't fully understand, and the resources to reproduce that technology on a massive scale, but overall they are fairly primitive compared to the Eldar and Tau.

The Tau basic weapon, in tabletop terms, is one of the best in the game. I'm not sure how amazing it is in the fluff and such, but compared to everything else, it's an impressive piece of equipment.
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Old 27 Feb 2006, 19:35   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Codex and some thoughts...

Tau are amazingly elite in my view. they have adapted and they have studied (although as mentioned, bear in mind Space Marines are a rare site in the 'real 40k world) they're a mechanized, well trained, well equipped, well drilled fighting force that work in perfect harmony and cripple their opponants without having to, literally, raise a fist. i'd say thats pretty good.
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Old 02 Mar 2006, 10:22   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Codex and some thoughts...

I'd like hand to hand troops but armies have to have a weakness that certain other armies can exploit as well as advantages to overcome your opponents advantages. If tau just have troops that excel in ever area of combat then nobody has a chance of beating tau. So just be grateful you have such good firepower from your troops that the opposition has not got.
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Old 02 Mar 2006, 10:50   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Codex and some thoughts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxxpetronivs
As much as I dislike the inability of firewarrior squads to take special/heavy weapons for table-top purposes (it really does limit their usefulness),
Wrong, as of March the first. Firewarrior Team leaders can take the HW drone control for free. There is now a way to take a couple of 'special' markerlights, thereby giving a chance of increasing the whole unit's BS to 5. And as we all know heavy the markerlights are to a tau.
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