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Fire Warriors with Carbines, or Rifles?
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Old 21 Feb 2006, 17:10   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Default Fire Warriors with Carbines, or Rifles?

I stopped playing GW hobbies about 2 or 3 years ago, considered starting a Tau army during that time and picked up the codex and then went cold turkey again. I've now decided to start up Warhammer 40k again and im basically deciding between a Marine Army or a Tau, ive got several things making my mind up, one of which is money ! Tau armies appeaer to be numerous modelwise (esp. tanks?) which loosk like it could cost a fair bit to get about 1500 points of ! so any info on that would be beneficial

Also though, reading through some of the tactics on here i was wondering about equipping Fire Warrior teams, im aware people seem to be a lot stricter on model equipment being visible and therefore meaning changing models equipment from game to game is less of a viable option (for in shop battles esp?) so i dont really want to buy + glue up/paint models without being sure first !

If i do a Tau army, its going to be a pretty mobile army, and so i've got about 3 questions; 1st, Carbine squads allow pinning, 18 inch range and fire on the movement, i'd likely to be taking two, (1000 point force) and finally 3 (1500) point force squads of 12 fire warriors. I was wondering whether the Rifles actually have much over the Carbines in terms of manuveurability, they seem to rely on stationary shooting, whereas with the Carbines you could keep the whole host on the move and still shoot outranging the persuing enemy infantry and potentially pinning them for a good getaway! they'd also be mounted into Devilfish, so dropping them close up using the Fish of Fury tactic would be the main plan, then when i add a 3rd squad, i'd equip it with either Carbines and use it to guard an Ethereal HQ unit (all on foot and probably forced on the move fairly early on from advancing infantry) hence why carbines would be beneficial? Or, i'd give them Rifles and rely on the Fish transported troops to provide support if things got messy, would this work? I am worried that if i equip too many squads with rifles ill end up with everything mobile except the Fire Warriors + HQ, whihc would end up stranded should the enemy overwhelm the initial fire-base deployment.

2nd: I hate the Kroot models, and would keep the army Strictly Tau so avoiding CC would be important, big time, as i'd have little to help out/use to get in the way, if it occurred, my tactic was gonan be to simply sacrifice the foot-based squad of Fire Warriors into a suicide charge and move the rest of the army out of the area.

Lastly i know Tau have a huge amount of Firepower, but they seem to lack many high AP guns (with exceptions of the big big guns like Railgun etc), has anyone found this to be a problem, as when i used to play 40k, Chaos and Normal Marines made up about 80% of my opponants. and i cant see that that will of changed?

Any answers/extra advice/tips for initial purchases etc would be good ! thanks.

and also, modelling question, i keep reading about 'Primer' now? When i played i used to just base coat using spray on chaos-black, and then paint them? IS Primer another word for undercoating, or is there some additional level to do before the undercoat now? cheers!

(sorry for long post)

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Old 21 Feb 2006, 17:33   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Default Re: Fire Warriors with Carbines, or Rifles?

A few questions I can answer :
On the number of models : A fire warrior box contains 12 models. A space marine box 6. So you will have to buy the same amount of boxes. Just like the imperial guard got 20 guardsmen in a box.

On the AP guns : They got loads, even the humble firewarrior can take out armour 11 with a 6. But it can be done. Everything else is even better at doing that job.

Kroot question : People will tell you kroot are a speedbump. Others will try to tell you the opposite. Its just the role you give them. You can use anything cheap for a speedbump ( or lure ) If you play it another way, you dont need speedbumps.

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Old 21 Feb 2006, 17:52   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Fire Warriors with Carbines, or Rifles?

You are aware that a new codex is coming out in like, a week, right?

First, rifles vs. carbines.

With the new rapid fire rules, allowing moving and shooting within 12", rifles have always been the better choice, especially since the only way to get carbines was to take a mixed squad, destroying the unit's efficiency. Now that you can take a full carbine squad in the new codex, it is a more valid choice.

I see no real reason to put them in a devilfish. They are mobile and have 18" range. The purpose of the FoF is to use the 8" hull of the devilfish to shield your rapid firing rifle warriors from return assault. It's hard to do, and often works better with 2 fish though.

They are also in competition with gun drones. Gun drones do exactly the same thing and are about as efficient, except that the squad size is smaller. Statistically a gun drone squad gets just under 1 marine casualty - a carbine squad, just over 1. The gun drones have lower leadership, and the "drop to ld4" rule, but also have jump-shoot-jump. However, hiding a full unit of drones behind terrain with jump-shoot-jump is difficult. Furthermore the two choices take separate force org slots.

Even with the new markerlight rules that allow reduced leadership for pinning checks, it seems mathematically more efficient to increase a squad's BS instead and just kill more of the squad. In some emergency cases the pinning can be used to hold up a deadly squad, but it's not better than just killing the squad, if that's possible, and the possibility of pinning is still pretty low.

If you take rifle fire warriors with devilfish, they are not going to be a static firing line. They are going to spend a lot of time in the fish, and do a rapid fire drop once or twice. Otherwise the fish is a waste of points. You can try to form up a static line, and run when the enemy gets close, but an 80 point fish is kind of expensive for that, and fire warriors outside the fish are pretty soft. Devilfish mounted fire warriors are a difficult unit to understand, and even harder to explain.


Low AP weapons are not abundant. You're going to be taking pulse fire to kill all infantry, marines included. It is statistically our best anti-MEQ weapon (actually kroot rifles are a bit better.) I'm slowly realizing that it actually works.

Plasma is for killing 2+, and 3+ in emergencies. We have some AP3 weaponry, more coming along in the new codex, but it's generally so expensive or hard to use that you need to fire at specialist units to make it worth it. If you want cheap abundant AP weapons, play eldar.

The Tau are a hard army to play. Since you already played 40k the learning curve won't be quite so bad, but you have to rethink a lot you thought you knew.


Quote:
base coat using spray on chaos-black
That is now primer. There is another coat that is the "base coat", and them you start really painting. But I suck at painting and hate it, and don't understand all these coats. So don't listen to me. :P

Oh yeah, the models question. It's not really more expensive than any other army, unless you plan to go fully mechanized, with a transport for every troops choice. every "type" of thing basically costs the same across armies. Transports, troop choices, battle tanks. It's just how many you want for your army. You could always go heavy on upgrades and have a more diluted army - it would be cheaper, but not particularly effective.
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