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Some help needed.
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Old 16 Feb 2006, 15:39   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Some help needed.

Hi
Im going to a tourney where space marines are almost my only opponent.
Never played Tau, I started studying the existing codex, the rumours about the new one and some Tau tactics.
The things Im thinking about myself is :
Fire warriors can kill marines almost better than suits ( heard this from a friend )
Grab a team of suits with twin plasma en missiles and put them in cover, pop out and fire go back in.
Kroot as speed bump.
And than 2 teams of broadsides. 1 per team with shield drones ( from the new rules )
So is this correct ?

And for people who know a bit more about the rules ( and the new rules ) or got experience in killing marines
How do you go at it.
Do I advance a bit with my fire warriors ? Do I need markerlights, Can I use a team of suits, what equipment etc.
Basicaly I want tips for killing power armour ^^
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Old 16 Feb 2006, 16:42   #2 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Some help needed.

Killing the three-up save is kind of the threshold of tournemant quality right now, so heres what I've found.

On average, 12 FWs with pulse rifles will kill ~1 a turn with their fire at maximum range. ( 4's to hit, 3's to wound, 3+ save)
On average, 24 FWs with pulse rifles will kill ~3 a turn with their fire at maximum range.
Basically you will kill ~1.5 Marines per 12 BS 3 pulse shots, on average, which means you're going to need something to crack marines.

Units
Fireknife Xv8- A very versatile choice, but it is on the expensive side of the line. It can take out the rhinos fairly easily, and still kill marines with the plasma rifle. Best used as Mon'at or in squads of 3.

Helios Xv8- Is a heavy infantry buster. It can easily take out 3 marines a turn, even Termies, but it is even more expensive than the fireknife. I've had some success with squads of 2, deep striking behind an enemy unit, and getting it in a crossfire with some fire warriors, then jumping behind cover or out of range. It can also take out most tanks without too much difficulty.

Stealths-Six can pump out 18 pulse shots at 18" and have a stealth field, which makes them great harrassers, but they'll only take out about 2-3 marines per shooting phase. One thing to note is that they always go first in combat if they enemy isn't in cover, which means that they can tie-up Devestator and Havoc squads in CC if need be, but shoot the squads first. It means that you might have a suit left when the combat ends.

Pathfinders w/ railrifles: These are expensive and frankly, I've never used them. They could be good if you've got ~300 points to burn. Once the new codex comes out, they'll be far more useful.

Broadsides: Keep these on the vehicles. Marines don't need this much firepower.

Rail-Heads: Good vs Scouts and ICs, with the vehicles ignoring Target Prority checks. It'll take out about 2 marines on average witht the Sub round, so it's pretty good.

Ion Heads: Meh, with markerlight support (needs three 'light hits), this thing can kill the most marines in one turn, averaging around 5-6 with the burst cannons. It's also an "In your face" tank and thus often dies before achieving the objective. It's a one hit wonder. They'll fire at the railhead first because it's bigger and scarier looking, but once the cat is out of the bag, this thing will be #1 priority with most marine players. The better ones generally ignore it, or send jump pack troops with a hidden master-crafted power fist or some such nonsense. Works well if you can support it with drones to keep it away from the powerfists and meltabombs, and with Xv8 back up to clean up the remnants of the squad.
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Old 16 Feb 2006, 17:43   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Some help needed.

So maybe I´d better take a team of crisis suits, a few squads of fire warriors. I was thinking squads of 8 or maybe 10. To keep them a bit small and more squads.
2 teams of 3 stealths.
And a broadside team ( instead of 2 teams ) Maybe 2 crisis teams.
Thanks for youre tips and explenation. I learned a lot.
Now I only got to find out the configurations that you talked about
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Old 16 Feb 2006, 18:11   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Some help needed.


Max out the Fire Warrior squads, there's no point just diluting fire power, especially against the 3+ armour save of the marines.

Check out the important topics sticky thread for crisis configurations, I think!
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Old 16 Feb 2006, 18:36   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Some help needed.

12 BS3 pulse shots will kill 1 1/3 marines, statistically. At 120 points, that works out to .01~ wounds per point. (per turn.)
At rapid fire you kill 2 2/3 marines, so .02~ wounds per point.

20 Kroot rifles kill 1 2/3 marines, so .012 wounds per point.
Rapid fire, 3 1/3 marines, so .024 wounds per point.

Twin plasma, from a squad of 3 crisis suits, will kill 1.875 marines, so .0104 wounds per point.
Rapid fire, 3.75 marines, so .0208 wounds per point.


Kroot rifles are really the best. However, kroot are notoriously fragile. You can't rely on finding enough cover for all of them, blast weapons will make them take lots of cover saves, flamers will kill them all with no saves, and their poor leadership almost guarantees that they'll run at some point in the battle. So they really cannot be relied upon as the troop core of the army.

Fire Warriors are the next best choice. But they are not the only ones that can bring pulse fire to the table. Stealth suits match fire warriors point-for-point in number and accuracy of shots. They infiltrate, have a stealth field, a better armor save, and can jump-shoot-jump. They only have 2 disadvantages compared to fire warriors - shorter range, and lack of rapid fire. The shorter range is not often a problem (most commonly is when considering fast assault units.) Lack of rapid fire is also not a problem, when you consider how you will get to rapid fire range. One way is to stand there while the opponent gets closer, taking a beating all the way. The other is to drop out of a devilfish, which wastes several turns of shooting anyway.

The general conclusion, though some decide otherwise, is that stealths are one of the best units for MEQ killing, and troop killing overall. 4-12 stealths, in units of 4-6 with no upgrades.

Fire Warriors are compulsory, so you might as well make the most of them. A devilfish to protect them from heavy weapons and occasionally rapid fire rush is good. Two units with devilfish make it easier to rapid-fire rush, shooting under the fish and using the skimmers as a wall to prevent assault in the next turn. This is called fish of fury. TonkaTruckDriver has a post in this forum about fire warriors - I recommend you read it, and all of his posts.

Kroot should be taken, but just a unit or two, with no upgrades. The only purpose of the armor upgrade would be to increase their leadership, and it's really too expensive for that. They are good to infiltrate, harass, be a pillbox unit, and OCCASIONALLY be a speedbump, like against a super fast moving assault unit. Be sure to stay 6" away from the kroot so your enemy can't massacre after he kills them. Remember that if Kroot are the only target you present your opponent, it doesn't matter how much fire or assault they soak up - if they weren't there, your opponent would have wasted his shots instead. Don't put them out in front for no reason. And they must be in cover.


Sometimes people use hammerheads for marine killing, though this is best done only when there are no vehicle targets. An ion cannon will kill 1 2/3 marines, .01~ per point, standardly equipped. It also gets secondary weapon shots which probably kill another marine. Still, it can kill much more by destroying expensive vehicles.

A submunition template needs 9 marines under it to equal the killing power of the ion cannon, considering that the template can miss. It is also more expensive, working out to .0098 wounds per point. Again, better used on vehicles.

Quote:
Grab a team of suits with twin plasma en missiles and put them in cover, pop out and fire go back in.
No, you don't want to jump into cover since you have to take a dangerous terrain test. You can jump around cover and then back, or you can walk into the cover with a difficult terrain test, and then jump back out. The best place for you to be at the end of your turn is behind cover. Think of it as a 1+ cover save when the opponent can't see you.

As for that makeup, it's not very good. If you're gonna twinlink on an elite suit, which is recommended, don't add another weapon. Just find something cheap to slip onto the third required hardpoint.

Alternatively you can use the popular fireknife config, plasma-missile pod-multitracker, allowing you to fire both weapons. However since the weapons have different ranges and different optimal targets (missile pods kill light vehicles, plasma kills expensive infantry with 3+ or 2+ saves) you will likely be wasting some shots with this config.

Quote:
And than 2 teams of broadsides. 1 per team with shield drones ( from the new rules )
So is this correct ?
2 teams of broadsides is a little on the extreme side. You want to make the best use of all of your heavy support slots. One team of broadsides is usually enough for heavy anti-tank firepower. If you want two broadsides, put them in one team, UNLESS you have a free heavy support slot AND extra points to spend on additional shield drones.

Broadsides are heavy anti-tank.
Railgun hammerheads are mobile anti-tank/anti infantry, not as reliable as broadsides for killing but the mobility is often worth the price.
Ion hammerheads are good for killing fast moving 3+ save troops, like assault marines and jetbikes, as well as light vehicles.
The new Skyray is a seeker missile boat that features MOBILE MARKERLIGHTS (!) secondary weapons, and hammerhead durability. Nice if you feel you don't need another railgun.
New sniper drones are anti-infantry. I don't know how efficient they are for their points, but they are pretty expensive.

Quote:
Do I advance a bit with my fire warriors ?
Only to do fish of fury, or hold an objective.

Quote:
Do I need markerlights
You'll probably want them, though using pathfinders is an art. You can get them elsewhere to experiment if you don't want to commit to pathfinders.

Quote:
Can I use a team of suits
Yes, but keep them split into separate elite slots if at all possible.
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Old 16 Feb 2006, 20:05   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Some help needed.

Thanks a lot for youre explenation.
Im going to throw this in the word document next to 2 others I got.
In the new battle force theres a devilfish, I can borrow one from a friend.
Im going to play 1k points. So is there enough ´room´ in there for 2 fof with squads, kroot, ionhammerhead, stealths and broadside or do I need to make choices.
With Room I mean is it wise to take all, or are some elements better with some other stuff.
Like in the guard, you only do all mech or all infantry nothin combined.
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Old 16 Feb 2006, 20:41   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Some help needed.

You might want to check the army list board for some more ideas, especially about how much stuff "fits" into a list.

It is generally not good to mix mechanization with infantry, leaving a few foot troops out on the table and the rest a bunch of tanks and transports, since all the anti-infantry fire will be focused on the static elements and wipe them out. On the other hand it is fine to take lots of foot troops with a few hammerheads. TonkaTruckDriver has recently written about denying shots, again I recommend checking out his posts in this forum. Also the Mech Tau Tactica - http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/%7Eleebj/index.html

Kroot are the hardest units to position in a mech army, you must make sure they are in or behind cover (in cover if there are ordinance weapons), away from flamers and in a place where they won't soak up TOO much anti infantry fire if/when they advance to firing distance. Battlesuits and drones can jump-shoot-jump, fire warriors have their 'fish, vespids are very fast.
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Old 16 Feb 2006, 21:49   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Some help needed.

The other problem with Kroot is that they are essentially a firebase unit. They like sitting in deep cover on a flank, while denying territory and safe movement for the enemy. The reason for this is that they are fragile unless they are in cover. If the marines deem the kroot a threat, the kroot can easily be discharged from the terrain. Generally, you need about a tactical squad to get rid of them.

This isn't a horrible thing from your perspective because even a pack of 20 un-upgraded kroot costs ~140 points, less than the un-upgraded Tactical Squad. But the more upgrades you take on your kroot, the quicker this small difference in points is negated and actually ends up costing more than a tactical squad.

Kroot have infiltrate, but it doesn't make up for a lack of mobility that is the final nail in the coffin vs faster armies such as eldar, Khorne, dark eldar, or necrons with a monolith.

Also, in straight number of kills, Kroot only cause about 1-2 marine deaths per 20 shots(4's to hit, 4's to wound, 3+ save=1.66 causualties). The question becomes, 12 FW @ 120-130 (w/ 'ui), or 20 kroot @ 140- 161 (w/ shaper).

If you're playing cover-heavy games (>25%), Kroot are far more survivable. They have an invulnerable save and can shoot despite hiding in deep woods. There are also a lot more kroot than there are fire warriors.

I would take 2 squads of FW in Devilfish, a Helios Squad w/ 2 suits, 2 Deathrain Mon'at suits, A commander W/ Helios, and a Railhead. This is more of an all-comers list, but it has a heavy lean towords Meq death.
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Old 17 Feb 2006, 00:32   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Some help needed.

Shaper is really a must-miss upgrade. For the price of 3 Kroot you gain the ability of not even two in combat, and one in shooting.

I hear in the new codex it will be possible to take armor without taking a shaper. That might be something to consider, again if only to increase their LD.
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Old 17 Feb 2006, 01:52   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Some help needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberzomby
Hi
Im going to a tourney where space marines are almost my only opponent.
Never played Tau, I started studying the existing codex, the rumours about the new one and some Tau tactics.
The things Im thinking about myself is :
Fire warriors can kill marines almost better than suits ( heard this from a friend )
Grab a team of suits with twin plasma en missiles and put them in cover, pop out and fire go back in.
Kroot as speed bump.
And than 2 teams of broadsides. 1 per team with shield drones ( from the new rules )
So is this correct ?

And for people who know a bit more about the rules ( and the new rules ) or got experience in killing marines
How do you go at it.
Do I advance a bit with my fire warriors ? Do I need markerlights, Can I use a team of suits, what equipment etc.
Basicaly I want tips for killing power armour ^^


Dude i find the Crisis kills more but thats just me i mean the Plasma Good stuff it drops them when there out of cover lol so ya have fun
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